tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post3913279627122301128..comments2024-03-11T02:32:15.295-04:00Comments on Goblin Artisans: M13 Recap / DragonUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-64543065284388790512012-03-27T11:19:20.788-04:002012-03-27T11:19:20.788-04:00I like it quite a bit at those stats. Aggressively...I like it quite a bit at those stats. Aggressively costed to the point RDW would consider playing onesir two as a finisher. If it dies its a blaze for 4, if it lives it could end the game.<br /><br />I like it.GeorgeGonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-5214390835507159812012-03-27T11:06:44.158-04:002012-03-27T11:06:44.158-04:00Firebreathing actually makes a lot of sense.
Prom...Firebreathing actually makes a lot of sense.<br /><br />Prometheus Hellkite 2RRR<br />4/4 Dragon<br />Flying<br />R: ~ gets +1/+0 until EOT.<br />Whenever a Dragon you control dies, it deals its power in damage to target c/p.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-68899696899923570512012-03-27T10:59:07.041-04:002012-03-27T10:59:07.041-04:00My only issue with it (as the design is simple and...My only issue with it (as the design is simple and cool) is that it's not Mythic. It feels like an intro pack rare. At 3RR and with firebreathing it feels more mythic... But that's the strictly better than Shivan problem.<br /><br />Would adding fire breathing make it too good? It creates a subgame of when it's safe to kill the dragon.<br /><br />Maybe the solution is to make him a lord? Rather that buff his own power he can buff your other Dragons. Only issue is that feels too similar to Moonveil Dragon.GeorgeGonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-67773585997345961942012-03-27T10:13:02.497-04:002012-03-27T10:13:02.497-04:00Hmm, how about a Pandemonium dragon?
Prometheus H...Hmm, how about a Pandemonium dragon?<br /><br />Prometheus Hellkite 4RR<br />5/5 Dragon<br />Flying<br />Whenever a Dragon you control dies, it deals its power in damage to target c/p.<br /><br />Swapped ETB for LTB at the last moment because I like that part of your suggestion more than paralleling Pandemonium perfectly.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-75027309587861859532012-03-26T23:08:56.463-04:002012-03-26T23:08:56.463-04:00The name doesn't really fit. Most of my postin...The name doesn't really fit. Most of my posting is done from my iPhone - which leads to some real awkward editing. <br /><br />I really just liked the parallelism between the first and second abilities. It can be concepted as corpses feeding the brood, or as something else entirely - A "How to Train Your Dragon" brood protecting a town. <br /><br />It probably works better as a Dragonmaster Outcast-esque creature, to be honest.GeorgeGonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-25298768795464782352012-03-26T22:14:10.089-04:002012-03-26T22:14:10.089-04:00Is Mother Dragon laying eggs in the corpses of the...Is Mother Dragon laying eggs in the corpses of the humanoids? What's happening here?Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-44855516651733804542012-03-26T17:22:43.988-04:002012-03-26T17:22:43.988-04:00Mother Dragon - 3RRR
Creature - Dragon
5/5
Flying
...Mother Dragon - 3RRR<br />Creature - Dragon<br />5/5<br />Flying<br />Whenever a non-Dragon you control dies, put a 5/5 red Dragon token with flying otb.<br />Whenever a Dragon you control dies, ~ deals 5 damage to target creature.<br /><br />You can add "or player" but the cost should rise. It can scale to 7 for a 7/7 that deals 7.GeorgeGonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-64882463178352357802012-03-25T19:07:21.384-04:002012-03-25T19:07:21.384-04:00Both should have flying. Oops.Both should have flying. Oops.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-55133846583020175232012-03-25T01:47:35.356-04:002012-03-25T01:47:35.356-04:00I don't believe the "Wheel of Fortune&quo...I don't believe the "Wheel of Fortune" effect belongs on a Dragon from a flavor perspective. This seems to go more on a Sphinx. It is also too powerful to cost aggressively. I also want this dragon to be both Limited, Standard, and possibly Modern playable as the last 10 Mythic Dragons have been unplayable.<br /><br />For an effect I think wildfire or land destruction would be very flavorful.<br /><br />Ideas-<br /><br />Art- Same for all cards. A Dragon sweeping down on a small village burning everything to the ground.<br /><br />RRRRRR<br /><br />Earth Scorcher Dragon<br /><br />When NAME is cast, destroy all lands.<br /><br />R: Name gets +1+0 until EOT<br /><br />5/5<br /><br />Or<br /><br />Wild Fire Dragon<br />2RRRR<br /><br />When NAME is cast each player sacrifices 4 lands and NAME deals 4 damage to each creature without flying.<br /><br />R: +1/+0 until EOT<br /><br />4/4<br /><br /><br />The numbers would have to be tweaked(Maybe destroy 3 target lands?), but I think this is both more flavorful(Especially in a classic fantasy sense) and allows the card to be more playable.Rorynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-24536070642435167452012-03-24T21:30:04.122-04:002012-03-24T21:30:04.122-04:00Assuming, for example, your opponent has a Huntmas...Assuming, for example, your opponent has a Huntmaster in play; and you kill the Huntmaster and the wolf token and do the rest to the player, you've offset one card from your opponent, plus one damage. If they went Lingering Souls plus flashback, you get to offset one card again plus an additional two damage, as long as they have no sort of anthem or pump effect.<br /><br />It's true that if your opponent has Phantasmal Images that don't currently have Undying or a number of Delvers on the board, you can make a profit, but creatures these days *are* pretty good, and you may find yourself spending five damage to take out both sides of a Geralf's Messenger while adding Gravecrawlers to your opponents' graveyard. You can kill a Grave Titan or both tokens, but not both.<br /><br />There's also the case of doom-blading ARD with the Wheel of the Fortune on the stack, which stops him from FTKing at all. You still get something out of the deal, which helps keep him playable, but (unless I'm mistaken on the timing) the opportunity is there.Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-16796303880889817962012-03-24T19:59:17.062-04:002012-03-24T19:59:17.062-04:00The damage-to-creatures means that you might take ...The damage-to-creatures means that you might take out a lot of the other guy's board. So even if the dragon resets everyone even on cards in hand, it might still generate a big advantage by taking out 2-3 opposing creatures.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417959233780755818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-72553959535984505342012-03-24T18:48:20.741-04:002012-03-24T18:48:20.741-04:00Maybe we can justify the 7 (or 8) mana cost by ass...Maybe we can justify the 7 (or 8) mana cost by assuming that your opponent really will draw an immediate answer to the him? While Wheel of Fortune is obviously a fun, big effect that you can put to good use, it *is* justifiably a drawback that could keep the cost down. This, (and the lack of flash) also help it not be strictly-better than Bogardan Hellkite.Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-24300939572257055982012-03-24T15:40:24.139-04:002012-03-24T15:40:24.139-04:00"Is there any ways to get it to ping creature..."Is there any ways to get it to ping creatures as well? That would be a little frisky at CMC=7"<br /><br />Yeah, it'd probably be too good. Even if you put it up to 8 mana, it still starts to outclass Bogardan Hellkite (you effectively get 7 divisible damage instead of 5). <br /><br />As far as eliminating the recent 7-mana dragons from casual contention, I see that as an asset, not a liability. Wizards has been on a bad streak of dragon design in the last couple years, and I would really like to see something strictly better.<br /><br />A big part of the reason I like the Shivan Progenitor build is the prospect to just Fireball someone out of the game. With Flame Vortex Dragon, you're giving most of the advantage to your opponent (ie, you tap low to play it, they get 7 fresh cards, untap, O-Ring/Doom Blade your dragon, and then you're pretty much back where you started).<br /><br />@Jay<br /><br />Firemind Mentor seems absurdly powerful. Definitely more powerful than Niv-Mizzet in most applications (except EDH, where you have silly combos available). Firemind Mentor is probably printable at 3RU, but I think you're right that it doesn't belong in a Core set.<br /><br />That doesn't make Shivan Progenitor and Firemind Mentor mutually exclusive though. I'd just say that Shivan Progeintor should go in the M13 file, and Firemind Mentor can live on your desk until it finds a home.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417959233780755818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-12468378772746472672012-03-24T14:47:51.374-04:002012-03-24T14:47:51.374-04:00Chah suggested a couple cards that further the dis...Chah suggested a couple cards that further the discussion:<br /><br />Flame Vortex Dragon 4RRR<br />10/7 Dragon<br />Flying, trample<br />When Flame Vortex Dragon enters the battlefield, each player discards his or her hand and draws 7 cards.<br /><br />That's the original ARD (for 3 less) minus the draw=damage ability. It's a different effect, but I think it still stands on its own. Like the original, I think its better w/o trample.<br /><br />Firemind Mentor 3RR<br />4/4 Dragon Wizard<br />Flying<br />Whenever you draw a card, Firemind Mentor deals 1 damage to target creature or player.<br />At the beginning of your upkeep, each player discards his or her hand and draws that many cards.<br /><br />This second design trades brawn for brains and arguably creates a more holistic design. We're not stapling an awesome effect to an awesome body or vice-versa, we're creating a smaller but cleverer dragon. Now that's not at all what we want for a core set, but I like the card very much. This makes me wonder if we don't want to save these abilities for this Firemind Mentor from some future expert set.<br /><br />Which would, of course, open this discussion/selection process back up again. Sigh.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-29082659955325717022012-03-24T10:41:19.138-04:002012-03-24T10:41:19.138-04:00I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you'r...I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you're saying. I have to wonder, though: is there any ways to get it to ping creatures as well? That would be a little frisky at CMC=7, which is really largely why I've been satisfied with a bigger dragon.<br /><br />The other problem that comes up there isn't "having a very good dragon at seven mana" (which I think we could definitely live with) but effectively eliminating most of the recent lamer 7-mana dragons from casual contention. The effect would be much more diminished than the one Baneslayer Angel had on your likelihood of playing any other angel, but it might be something to consider? That may be overdesigning, though. Possibly this?<br /><br />Venerable Firemind 7R<br />Flying<br />When ~ ETB, Wheel of Fortune.<br />Whenever you draw a card, ~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.<br />7/7Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-42446788384912740432012-03-23T22:49:57.025-04:002012-03-23T22:49:57.025-04:00I really dislike Bogardan Ancient. I hate the pote...I really dislike Bogardan Ancient. I hate the potential major drawback; it kills the card for most constructed applications. If the Artisan's M13 were seeing print, this card would exist in a format where the easiest way to cheat it in will be with Unburial Rites. When you're playing reanimator, you will very likely have a handful of cards when you unbury, which means you would never play the Ancient in your deck. And unless I missed something, R&D has been feeling down on mana rituals in the last few years. So dumping your hand to ritual out Bogardan Ancient doesn't seem relevant.<br /><br />I don't really understand the objections to the "ETB, Wheel/Niv-Mizzet" abilities.<br /><br />And I want to reiterate that mythics that are unplayable in their limited environments are lame. 9 mana is still outside the realm of core playability.<br /><br />I thought Shivan Progenitor was the best version so far here. The only tweak is that I'd make it trigger off your draw, and deal damage to each opponent (instead of dealing damage when the opponent draws). <br /><br />Shivan Progenitor 4RRR<br />creature - dragon<br />Flying<br />When ~ ETB, Wheel of Fortune.<br />Whenever you draw a card, ~ deals 1 to each opponent.<br />7/7<br /><br />This is a card I would be happy to open in Limited, run in Standard in Frites, and it'd definitely go in my Kaervek EDH deck. It's also a very fair card. Yes, it might burn someone out when it enters play, but so could Fireball. It could swing for the win, but it'll also have given the other play a fair chance to respond.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417959233780755818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-14688641832450576082012-03-23T18:33:13.095-04:002012-03-23T18:33:13.095-04:00Ah, I didn't realize there were multiple Drago...Ah, I didn't realize there were multiple Dragons in the set. As long as the other one can crank up the flavor to max, then I feel much less bad about this one.<br /><br />I'd wonder if the mythic one should be the more resonant one, and the rare should be more tournament-worthy?Alex Spaldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03747145070824848773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-29663396522854207512012-03-23T17:36:49.565-04:002012-03-23T17:36:49.565-04:00Fair point. Bear in mind that this isn't the o...Fair point. Bear in mind that this isn't the only Dragon in the set, though; this is the /mythic/ dragon. Ancient Hellkite is good for new players (though not as good as Shivan Dragon) but it's definitely no mythic.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-38751835428562378092012-03-23T14:16:46.973-04:002012-03-23T14:16:46.973-04:00Are the people determining that a good representat...Are the people determining that a good representation of the Core Set's target audience, though? An important part of the Core Set's job is to be a gateway for new players, and that's a demographic that isn't going to be looking at a Magic design blog. It's more important that a mythic Dragon, a powerful and highly identifiable fantasy trope, be something resonant with everyone's conception of "Dragon" than being popular with people who are already playing the game. It's obviously best if both groups can get equally excited about the card, but it's better to err on the side of flavorful-but-bad-in-competitive-constructed in my opinion. This design may get established players excited but it does a much poorer job of getting something who's on the fence about Magic hooked in. Ancient Hellkite is something they can immediately understand, this card is not.Alex Spaldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03747145070824848773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-34400678142842658122012-03-22T15:45:27.679-04:002012-03-22T15:45:27.679-04:00Unburial Rites, sorry. I suppose I should be clear...Unburial Rites, sorry. I suppose I should be clear that in my opinion, if we want to make a mythic dragon playable in standard (but not brokenly destroying the format, obviously), making it something Reanimatable is a *good* thing. Elesh Norn and Inferno Titan will both be rotating out of standard, and ARD as it stands is a good replacement that doesn't necessarily lock down the game but can get you there and, in the meantime, plays pretty good Magic.Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-52344555364440469922012-03-22T15:39:50.804-04:002012-03-22T15:39:50.804-04:00I would pick this for an expert set over a core se...I would pick this for an expert set over a core set too, but there was vastly more support for this than Diamond Dragon or any of the other designs that screamed core set.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-8222979338418118192012-03-22T15:37:45.783-04:002012-03-22T15:37:45.783-04:00Rites... of Flourishing? I'm not sure what you...Rites... of Flourishing? I'm not sure what your point is.<br /><br />To be clear, I love the original version of ARD. I'm trying to find something that its detractors will like, but it appears I've lost its supporters in dong so.<br /><br />I have to admit I've found the task of gauging excitement for a given card difficult since so many commenters either boo everything or only express their feelings (positive or negative) after a cut or change is made. That's just the nature of a blog and I don't blame anyone, but evaluating that is a skill I'm still developing.<br /><br />Ultimately, there's no card that everyone's going to agree is best. And if you believe MaRo and zdch, we're happy to find a design that some players hate, if others love it just as much.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-34657358241496027902012-03-22T15:24:40.547-04:002012-03-22T15:24:40.547-04:00Much less interesting, to me. It's probably a ...Much less interesting, to me. It's probably a great version of "Bogardan Hellkite meets Dragon Mage", but misses out on the majority of flavor and play that ARD has. Its inability to hit creatures means you're really hoping for a full-on seven, but that's both unlikely and not really a great reward once you've gotten there.<br /><br />We're printing this card right after Rites, and right before the majority of the Rites-friendly monsters go away. <br /><br />You describe the ping-every-turn as "timid", but I would say it's a decently fun ability that has a flavorful root and a history of being very loved by players. What's more (to me), there's something fun in two abilities synergizing that's lost when you replace it with one single ability, especially with one that just seems worse (or less worthwhile, at least).Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-15994365072051153172012-03-22T15:14:44.840-04:002012-03-22T15:14:44.840-04:00What's with all this card-drawing business? Do...What's with all this card-drawing business? Doesn't seem very Dragon-y to me. These are fine mythic designs but they don't seem appropriate to me for a Core Set dragon. If this were an expert set I'd like them a lot more.Alex Spaldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03747145070824848773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-42570242490749481492012-03-22T15:13:50.376-04:002012-03-22T15:13:50.376-04:00"to each opponent"? I see very little be..."to each opponent"? I see very little benefit in making this look less appealing and randomly ping you for 2ish. Worth it to affect the same set of players with both parts of the ability?Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.com