tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post6075067796565293744..comments2024-03-11T02:32:15.295-04:00Comments on Goblin Artisans: CCDD 042314—Spike BaitUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-38902694104050670542014-04-25T09:58:55.813-04:002014-04-25T09:58:55.813-04:00Indeed.
I wonder if Magic's early spiikey in...Indeed. <br /><br />I wonder if Magic's early spiikey interest in drawback mechanics were accepted at a low threshold but when they spiked so hard in Odyssey that it broke the camel's back.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-88173705020787692312014-04-24T11:27:54.108-04:002014-04-24T11:27:54.108-04:00This topic reminds me so much of Odyssey Block. I ...This topic reminds me so much of Odyssey Block. I can't believe how many unattractive looking creatures were at Common in those sets. <br /><br />Aven Trooper (Pay a ton of mana and discard a card for a P/T boost.)<br />Barbarian Bully (Discard a card at random for a Punisher effect.) <br />Cephalid Aristocrat (When targeted you have to mill yourself.)<br />Cephalid Scout (Pay a ton of mana and sac a land to draw a card.)<br />Cephalid Snitch (Sacrifice to remove pro black for a single turn.)<br />Dwarven Scorcher (Sacrifice for a small Punisher effect.)<br />Earsplitting Rats (Each player discards when it etb.)<br />Filthy Cur (Damage is redirected from it to you.)<br />Fledgling Imp (Discard a card to give it flying for a single turn.)<br />Longhorn Firebeast (Its Punisher is sarifice it or 5 damage to an opponent.)<br />Mad Dog (sacrifice it if I don't attack with it.)<br />Nullmage Advocate (Give an opponent a card back from there graveyard to Naturalize.)<br />Pardic Swordsmith (Discard a card at random for a double Firebreathing effect.)<br />Shieldmage Advocate (Give an opponent a card back from there graveyard to prevent damage dealt to a target.)<br />Spellgorger Barbarian (Lose a card in hand at random while its in play.)<br />Thought Nibbler (Reduces your handsize by 2 cards.)<br />Treacherous Werewolf (Threshold give it +2/+2 and "When this dies, lose 4 life.")<br /><br />So more than a few of these cards had fine bodies, and their drawbacks helped the graveyard theme of the set. I'm glad Magic has advanced beyond this sort of design. Even something as simple as changing "At the beginning of your end step, if Mad Dog didn't attack or come under your control this turn, sacrifice it." to "Mad Dog attacks each turn if able." goes a long way towards making cards more appealing.Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-77195853489461168032014-04-24T10:50:05.589-04:002014-04-24T10:50:05.589-04:00Checking Gatherer, I see that players really didn&...Checking Gatherer, I see that players really didn't like Kraul Warrior or Selesnya Sentry. That's <i>much</i> more telling than Spike Bait because those cards have strictly positive abilities and the only problem with them is how expensive they are.<br /><br />So those cards are clearly achieving the same goal as Spike Bait, while actually be decent designs (because they're not suggesting you do something that would hurt your chances of winning).<br /><br />The question I'm left with is whether these better examples are good for the game where Spike Bait isn't. Is the line between "wants to help" or not, or is it between "players like this" or not?Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-37599651681308992892014-04-24T10:43:55.957-04:002014-04-24T10:43:55.957-04:00I agree with both points. It's worth noting th...I agree with both points. It's worth noting this is something only Development would do.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-26613486780273715072014-04-24T10:41:05.770-04:002014-04-24T10:41:05.770-04:00This is 150% relevant (despite being 'about...This is 150% relevant (despite being 'about' something slightly different), thanks for reminding us of this.<br /><br />It's amusing how similar his examples are to Spike Bait.<br /><br />(I'm still torn between Zac's and Maro's positions, but it's clear that designs like Spike Bait are basically unacceptable at a fundamental level.)Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-48192132338278168972014-04-24T10:26:19.185-04:002014-04-24T10:26:19.185-04:00Upon revisiting that article, I am even more stron...Upon revisiting that article, I am even more strongly on Zac's side.HavelockVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698268009797139251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-37825368277130360252014-04-24T08:33:39.117-04:002014-04-24T08:33:39.117-04:00Yeah. I think Spike Bait is hilarious for making t...Yeah. I think Spike Bait is hilarious for making the point about how different players value cards differently, but I think for actually teaching players, cards like the invokers would be a lot better.<br /><br />Wizards usually avoids putting deliberately useless text on cards because players don't expect it, and I think that's right -- there's plenty of place for useful complexity, we should be able to achieve the same goals without useless complexity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-13086605455904293622014-04-24T01:19:27.923-04:002014-04-24T01:19:27.923-04:00Relevant article: https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Ma...Relevant article: https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/188Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17647677781801914930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-42832151449345930002014-04-23T16:29:22.842-04:002014-04-23T16:29:22.842-04:00There were a few cards like that in RTR block too....There were a few cards like that in RTR block too... (Kraul Warrior and Selesnya Sentry). Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-47186885626637646822014-04-23T16:27:24.710-04:002014-04-23T16:27:24.710-04:00I think this only counts as good design if your se...I think this only counts as good design if your set has an intrinsic reason to do this, for example, to enable Hellbent or Threshold or something (neither of which do I expect to see again). <br /><br />I am very disappointed by cards where the answer to "Why?" is "because we could," and I think without some motivation this is a bit too close to that. Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-83179514551314052562014-04-23T16:25:12.876-04:002014-04-23T16:25:12.876-04:00Reminds me of the invoker cycles, which had reason...Reminds me of the invoker cycles, which had reasonable limited stats and a place to dump mana in the late game. Interestingly (and unlike with Spike Bait) I think there's a curve of player experience where both really inexperienced and really experienced players would snap them up but those with moderate experience would fall into the perception trap you discussed above. zefferalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13845251416516553492noreply@blogger.com