tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post8169088246343692577..comments2024-03-11T02:32:15.295-04:00Comments on Goblin Artisans: Set Design: Unanswered Question #1Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger123125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-75894014201142829602013-03-11T00:42:32.215-04:002013-03-11T00:42:32.215-04:00Lucky Shot (Whenever this creature blocks or becom...Lucky Shot (Whenever this creature blocks or becomes blocked, flip a coin. If you win the flip, it deals damage equal to its power to target creature blocking or blocked by it.)<br /><br />Do you feel lucky punk?Wobbleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11494097707732649864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-67691323941528369582013-03-06T00:25:29.345-05:002013-03-06T00:25:29.345-05:00I think it could be cast for free. I know free is...I think it could be cast for free. I know free is dangerous design space, but I think if it's kept to 1 or 2 and always works symmetrical.<br /><br />The Flavor I'm going for is the creatures in the duel cast the spell.Rory The Greathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16131729348697182882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-52735963637503851892013-03-05T10:28:03.519-05:002013-03-05T10:28:03.519-05:00@Havelock The cards can be held in hand, just like...@Havelock The cards can be held in hand, just like the others, but turned facing the other way. If it turns out that it makes the games interesting, it would be worth it. Or it might lead to some other ideas. Right now we're just guessing how it might feel to have multiple cards revealed as used-up bullets but we should try it.<br /><br />@Wobbles I think it's ok for a mechanic to represent something in an abstract way. The Werewolf mechanic is a good example of that; there's no direct logical connection between the number of spells cast in a turn and what time of the day it is.<br /><br />I believe the mechanic doesn't need to simulate the thing it's representing in a hyper-literal way as long as it shows some aspect of that thing while capturing the overall feel of that thing. The Werewolf mechanic does capture the aspect that Werewolves change, and operate as a pack. The overall feel is that players can work frantically to avoid it, but without complete control. <br /><br />There are several aspects of gunfire or cowboy duels that we can bring out, but if we choose to bring out the "limited ammo" factor, then keying it off of a limited resource (like cards in a particular zone) will match the overall feel, even if the connection is abstract. <br /><br />If we want to bring out the flavor of Wand-guns having limited charges, mana might not be the best way. An example would be artifacts with limited charges like Tumble Magnet. Since they represent magical artifacts infused with energy, it may make flavor sense to make them use mana instead of charge counters. But then they would have unlimited charges, so they won't play like artifacts with limited charges anymore. I think the same is true for substituting bullets with mana. (Although we don't necessarily need to focus on the limited ammo aspect of guns, and focus on ranged combat, or the unpredictable "showdown" aspect of a cowboy duel instead.)Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-80049894863866088762013-03-05T09:33:17.092-05:002013-03-05T09:33:17.092-05:00Agreed on all points.
The weird execution part w...Agreed on all points. <br /><br />The weird execution part was a mutation to explore the possibility of avoiding looting/discarding for players who hate that. But its too awkward.<br /><br />The main thrust was that a creature who wins gets to hit first. You're right that it's worse than first strike as written. Double Strike might be worth it.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-15941955339597577542013-03-04T23:19:23.892-05:002013-03-04T23:19:23.892-05:00I'm worried that
1. Players won't want to ...I'm worried that<br />1. Players won't want to mill themselves<br />2. If we printed any cheap for 3 mana or less it would lead to degenerate combo decks.<br />3. Because these actually get killed in combat the milling might not actually be dangerous, at which point this is just deathtouch.<br />That said, I really like that they'll actually want to block so the mechanic will trigger.<br />Milling until you hit a land would alleviate the deathtouch and combo issues, but might feel too random. We could also go until you hit a nonland instead to ensure some boost (but fewer cards milled on average).Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-82858466063577173342013-03-04T23:06:38.955-05:002013-03-04T23:06:38.955-05:00I'm failing to see why we want this over just ...I'm failing to see why we want this over just draw, then discard. The player can always discard the fresh card to replicate the milling. Are you trying to get people to clash without forcing it upon them?<br /><br />It's also kind of awkward that this triggers even when the first strike might be irrelevant (i.e. attacking with two 2/2s with Duel into an 0/3).<br /><br />That said, I do like the creatures dueling since designs that do things like gain life if you win a duel feel really strange. Maybe we could grant double strike. As is this ability is weaker than first strike, and double strike will make the trigger irrelevant way less often (assuming these guys are small enough that they're not getting chumped).Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-78966879902101249092013-03-04T10:12:23.309-05:002013-03-04T10:12:23.309-05:00Duel (Whenever ~ becomes blocked, put a card from ...<b>Duel</b> <i>(Whenever ~ becomes blocked, put a card from your hand or the top of your library into your graveyard. The defending player does likewise. If your card had a higher CMC, ~ gains first strike until EOT. Each player that discarded a card this way draws a card.)</i>Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-35811258038602960272013-03-04T10:07:14.927-05:002013-03-04T10:07:14.927-05:00Found it. Rapid Fire is Fiery Deadeye from Deadsan...Found it. Rapid Fire is <a href="Fiery%20Deadeye" rel="nofollow">Fiery Deadeye from Deadsands</a> except keyworded to appear on 10+ cards.<br /><br />The Goblin Snowman ruling (which I couldn't find anywhere except your conversation with Arthur on Twitter) isn't intuitive. Some players will assume Last Known Information will let all the bullets resolve once shot. Also flavor.<br /><br />And, as you point out, it still has the biggest problem Chah pointed out of just being a wordy version of 'unblockable' that also makes attacking back crazy.<br /><br />Maybe just having a single creature with this ability or a single aura to slap it on a creature is the way to go.<br /><br />I like Landed Shot, and if we go with permanent reveal of individual cards, would like to test that.<br /><br />One more option to consider:<br /><b>Rapid Fire E</b> <i>(Whenever ~ blocks or becomes blocked, choose a number. Put that many cards from the top of your library into your graveyard. ~ gets +X/+0 until EOT, where X is the highest CMC of cards milled this way.)</i>Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-25499785023852270912013-03-04T03:31:53.195-05:002013-03-04T03:31:53.195-05:00Wait, that's just Dig, right? A "spend yo...Wait, that's just Dig, right? A "spend your land on a shot right before you play it" mechanic might play well with that, as well as helping a general lands-matters sort of theme. I'm definitely interested in exploring this some more.Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-78665587749517400372013-03-04T02:24:22.622-05:002013-03-04T02:24:22.622-05:00How about:
Landed Shot (Permanently reveal a land...How about:<br /><br />Landed Shot (Permanently reveal a land card from your hand: ~ deals 1 damage to target creature blocking or blocked by it.)<br /><br />This discourages players from playing lands, but only until they've been used. It also give a "free" mechanic a real cost.<br /><br />It would also play well with land cycling or <br /><br />Homestead 1 (1, discard this card: reveal cards from your library until you reveal a land card. Put that card into your hand and put the rest at the bottom of your library in random order.) Wobbleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11494097707732649864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-27128012087774407492013-03-04T01:26:40.160-05:002013-03-04T01:26:40.160-05:00This version certainly feels much more like gun co...This version certainly feels much more like gun combat to read, but given Chah's points I'm not convinced it will play out that way. That makes me want to wrap in a must be blocked clause or saboteur trigger, but that's likely too complicated.<br /><br />Also, the Goblin Snowman ruling makes for some potentially cool gameplay (well, except that you know how the firefight will turn out from the start based on the number of untapped lands). It's also slightly strange that you "shoot" but the bullet goes away if you die, though I get that the flavor is supposed to be that you only shoot as it resolves.<br /><br />Rituals could make things more interesting, but they'd have to be cheap so that you don't tip your hand, in which case they're hard to balance.<br /><br />What I want is:<br />Rapid Fire ? ({Pay a resource that you have an indeterminate number of}: This creature deals 1 damage to target creature blocking or blocked by it.)<br /><br />What is that resource? The only option I see is revealing a card with a specific property from your hand because your opponent can't know about it, but if you don't know about it it'll just feel random.<br /><br />Rapid Fire B (Permanently reveal an instant or sorcery card from your hand: This creature deals damage equal to that card's converted mana cost to target creature blocking or blocked by it.)<br /><br />That version would lead to a lot of blowouts because they shouldn't play around it and as such you'll often get a free card from an instant/sorcery. Time to take a lesson from Bloodrush.<br /><br />Rapid Fire C (Discard a card: This creature deals damage equal to that card's converted mana cost to target creature blocking or blocked by it.)<br /><br />But players might feel bad about using their good cards, so I'll also propose one more version.<br /><br />Rapid Fire D (Permanently reveal a creature card from your hand: This creature deals damage equal to that card's power to target creature blocking or blocked by it.)<br /><br />This feels really weird, but I'm pretty sure there's a manga/anime in which they have magic spirit guide animal bullets, so who knows.<br />Anyway, this version supports tense battlecruiser Magic without giving away all of the players' hidden information.<br /><br />/stream of consciousnessJuleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-21714627429456272582013-03-04T00:55:02.293-05:002013-03-04T00:55:02.293-05:00@Jay: I didn't playtest it, but I was the one ...@Jay: I didn't playtest it, but I was the one to propose it and have been swayed away. There are two possibilities as far as I can tell:<br />1. The mind games don't get played and there's no excitement.<br />2. Both players are in on the mind games and now everyone has to keep track of a bunch of cards between graveyards.<br />The bluffing has no value unless there are enough showdowns to make setting up for future ones important, and if the players have identified that as important there's no way that they aren't going to want to know what's in the graveyards to plan ahead. Result: information overload a la Odyssey.<br /><br />@HavelockV: Those are potentially important, but I'd posit that the Western trope is more about the quick draw than the fact that guns are what's being drawn. There's a definite overlap between the still before a sudden shot in a duel at high noon and the moment before the hands are spread in a game of poker. That is the moment I think we need to capture.Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-30027207758351656522013-03-03T23:57:26.869-05:002013-03-03T23:57:26.869-05:00I get that. After considering it further, I think ...I get that. After considering it further, I think I can do better:<br /><br />Rapid Fire (1: This creature deals 1 damage to target creature blocking or blocked by it.)<br /><br />Lets run it through Havelock's check list:<br /><br />* Guns fire bullets as instantaneous events.<br />This ability is instant speed. It's faster than first strike, it can be used in response to removal. Check<br /><br />* Bullets deal damage or otherwise harm the creature being shot.<br />Yep, 1 mana=1 damage<br /><br />* Guns can be used from a distance.<br />This is a bit of a miss. Unlike previous machine gun abilities (Masticore, Olivia Voldaren), you can't just gun down their entire squad. That said, this ability can still happen "from a distance" in that it can hit a creature before even first strike has a chance. <br /><br />* Firing a gun takes ammunition. (Possibly less important?)<br />You've got to feed this mana. Mana is the core costing mechanic in the game, and creates the most dynamic choices because it's the resource everything uses. If you're going to gun down a big creature or save mana for defense, it costs you the ability to cast other cards. <br /><br />I like a few things about this over High Stakes. First, it uses the existing gun metaphor in Magic, the Masticore ability. Now, that ability is obviously insane in limited and could never be reprinted. But by limiting it to creatures engaged in combat, it really changes what it can do. It's a lot harder to just use this to finish off a creature, because then the creature still gets to deal damage.<br /><br />Second, a battle between two creatures with Rapid Fire has a shoot out feel. Because of the way that Rapid Fire is worded, if the creature is no longer in play when it resolves the ability fizzles. (That's the way it works with Goblin Snowman) So if a 1/1 and a 1/1 start firing at each other, it's only the first one to run out of mana that dies. Now THAT'S a shoot out, and a game of one-upsmanship. <br /><br />Downsides:<br />It's still a bit mathy. This version is WAY weaker, but it still involves some calculations that might slow down combat.<br /><br />It still reads as "Don't block me/don't attack into me." Again, it now takes a lot more mana to truly gun down a creature, but this still has a "deathtouch" feel to it. That might not be fun enough.<br /><br />This thing would be a pain on MTGO. Ideally you need to have each instance of the ability resolve before putting the next one on the stack. That way you don't activate it 4 times to kill a 4/4, only to get you guy doombladed in response to all of them. If you ping it 3 times individually, you only need to ping it a fifth time to kill it. That's easy enough to shorthand IRL (although annoying and rules lawyer-y), but I can't think of how to template it otherwise.<br /><br />So, yeah. There you go. Wobbleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11494097707732649864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-24362612351822755212013-03-03T23:27:40.176-05:002013-03-03T23:27:40.176-05:00Honestly, the biggest problem I have with the mech...Honestly, the biggest problem I have with the mechanic is the flavor disconnect. <br /><br />Why are cards (in hand, from library, from graveyard) bullets? <br /><br />If anything, mana should make bullets for the creatures, because mana powers everything else. Revealing information for bullets was my solution to having the mechanic be free, but I'm just not sure that makes sense.Wobbleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11494097707732649864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-52286565515767036962013-03-03T23:23:10.080-05:002013-03-03T23:23:10.080-05:00True. I really like that, especially because it re...True. I really like that, especially because it really hurts to use it if you need to make your land drop that turn.<br /><br />@Pasteur. Yes, the delayed trigger means you still get to draw the card, even if the creature with harvest dies. It's also nice because all of your creatures with harvest will trigger if you decide to harvest at all. Wobbleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11494097707732649864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-12802968097992139162013-03-03T22:07:05.429-05:002013-03-03T22:07:05.429-05:00If you have some cards in your hand revealed and o...If you have some cards in your hand revealed and others not, then you end up basically having two hands to keep track of, which seems like a major pain. For that reason, I'm in favor of reveal mechanics being single events (like Amplify) or making the whole hand open. And since the latter really does cause problems, I prefer the former.HavelockVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698268009797139251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-2148015100925225352013-03-03T20:24:07.555-05:002013-03-03T20:24:07.555-05:00No, revealing cards is just dangerous territory in...No, revealing cards is just dangerous territory in the way most new mechanics are. There is no such thing as "this is the standard amount of dangerousness new territory usually has, but this territory is more dangerous because it has known problems."<br /><br />I would compare it to Infect making players start games with 10 life, DFCs being identifiable from their back side when put into a deck, level up creatures being complex, etc. - they all had recognizable problem going in. If you talk about making the game worse, these mechanic really did make the game worse, in all the predicted ways. For example DFCs did introduce some logistics hassle to the game. They made their sets worse, AND they made their sets much, much better. It makes no sense to say "this is new territory, but since it makes the game worse in these known ways, it's different from exploring new territory in an ordinary sense." No, this is exactly what exploring new territory is all about.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-83146650308206730762013-03-03T19:11:29.980-05:002013-03-03T19:11:29.980-05:00Oops, sorry Chops. I guess I saw "Ch" an...Oops, sorry Chops. I guess I saw "Ch" and a short word and automatically filled in the rest.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-15111292493270576032013-03-03T18:47:04.589-05:002013-03-03T18:47:04.589-05:00HavelockV: If you pick a number your opponent know...HavelockV: If you pick a number your opponent knows you have, then they don't call your bluff and you don't get the copy.<br /><br />Jay Treat: Do I need to use a different account to avoid being mistaken for Chah? ;) Or did he make a similar point somewhere else?<br /><br />I forgot that a bluff would involve a single reveal, not the chain of bluff, copy, bluff that my version had. The Double Dealing version seems like an efficient way to do it.Chopshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15713827998721442549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-14002719031001625432013-03-03T16:40:06.194-05:002013-03-03T16:40:06.194-05:00.44 Hexcaster
1
Artifact – Equipment
X: Exile targ....44 Hexcaster<br />1<br />Artifact – Equipment<br />X: Exile target Instant or Sorcery card with CMC X from your graveyard. Equipped creature gets +X/+0 until EOT.<br />Equip 1Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-86313903684181370682013-03-03T16:31:51.843-05:002013-03-03T16:31:51.843-05:00I'm saying that revealing large numbers of car...I'm saying that revealing large numbers of cards is <b>more</b> dangerous territory than new territory already is. We know it has problems that make the game worse, by reducing hidden information and thus suspense and the possibility of bluffing.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-12114198864568982362013-03-03T16:29:00.848-05:002013-03-03T16:29:00.848-05:00Nice.Nice.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-66356714522403022532013-03-03T16:27:21.985-05:002013-03-03T16:27:21.985-05:00Unfortunately, it's going to be hard to sell p...Unfortunately, it's going to be hard to sell players on any mechanic like Miracle, even if the implementation is better. Otherwise, I like the idea. I would remove the "if it's the first card you drew this turn" clause since you're paying full-price.<br /><br />Ante Up is 10 (!) lines long on a Magic card.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-16923186336350800342013-03-03T16:10:47.612-05:002013-03-03T16:10:47.612-05:00Chah's right that I forgot not being called ou...Chah's right that I forgot not being called out can't equal being proved wrong. New version (which is mighty wordy):<br />Bluff — <i>Claim a number. The defending player may call your bluff. If he or she doesn't, good effect. If that player does, you may reveal a card in your hand with that CMC. If you do, great effect. If you don't, bad effect.</i><br /><br />Here's another version based on Chah's:<br />Double Dealing 1U<br />Sorcery (unc)<br />Bluff—Draw a card. <i>(You may draw two cards instead. If an opponent calls your bluff, reveal a card named ~ in your hand. If you do, draw three cards instead. If you don't, counter this spell.)</i><br /><br />Wobbles' Liar's Pendulum also seems solid.<br /><br />Finally:<br />High Stakes Bluff <i>(Whenever one or more creatures attack, you may put an unrevealed card from your hand face-down under ~. When it blocks or becomes blocked, permanently reveal that card and return it to your hand. ~ gets +X/+X until EOT where X is the revealed card's CMC.)</i>Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-69931142257785482622013-03-03T15:48:45.544-05:002013-03-03T15:48:45.544-05:00Why the middle of the turn? All that means is you ...Why the middle of the turn? All that means is you can't cast a guy with haste or play pre-combat pump.<br /><br /><b>Harvest</b> <i>(Instead of drawing a card at the beginning of your draw step, you may draw a card at the beginning of your end step)</i><br /><br />Now it's actually costing you something.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.com