tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post9163811001379268069..comments2024-03-11T02:32:15.295-04:00Comments on Goblin Artisans: Moving Activation Restrictions to the Left of the ColonUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-30797539715375511992014-10-17T15:20:58.277-04:002014-10-17T15:20:58.277-04:00I had a much longer reply to this, but that thread...I had a much longer reply to this, but that thread you linked to flattened me like a pancake. This card and others like it (Veteran's Voice, Nature's Chosen, Merseine, Grizzled Wolverine, etc) should have been errata'd when 5th Edition was printed. They either have or grant activated abilities in overly convoluted ways that can be expressed so much more simply. There's no reason Caribou Range was errata'd to:<br /><br />Enchanted land has "WW, T: Put a 0/1 white Caribou creature token onto the battlefield."<br /><br />while Veteran's Voice wasn't. It is still:<br /><br />Tap enchanted creature: Target creature other than the creature tapped this way gets +2/+1 until end of turn. Activate this ability only if enchanted creature is untapped. <br /><br />Its erratta slips through the cracks. Anyway, Martyrdom is a stupid card, and we shouldn't care about preserving it's functionality in the way we are. Especially for an event that might have never happened EVER before, and which could be corrected if it no longer granted an activated ability.Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-45770106179894410792014-10-17T09:18:59.730-04:002014-10-17T09:18:59.730-04:00Martyrdom's Oracle wording is very deliberate....Martyrdom's Oracle wording is very deliberate. It's phrased that way so that if you <i>lose control of the creature later in the turn</i>, it's still only you who can redirect damage to the creature. It's an attempt to match functionality of the original wording, as best as possible.<br /><br />See also <a href="http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3114591" rel="nofollow">this thread</a>, on which I proposed the deliberately ridiculous alternate wording<br /><br />Until end of turn, target creature you control gains "0: The next 1 damage that would be dealt to target creature or player this turn is dealt to this creature instead. Any player may activate this ability." Only you may activate this ability.AlexChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674122775216494431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-29056812252722412622014-10-17T09:11:58.720-04:002014-10-17T09:11:58.720-04:00I agree that "Any player may activate" s...I agree that "Any player may activate" should be at the front, (except for when there's an hourglass symbol). That's a great nit pick. Most of my "Any Players" are formated that way. Lightning Storm kind of worries me, because I don't want to confuse players. Anyway, there are two changes:<br /><br />Any player may activate, if NAME is on the stack — <br />Any player may activate, only during an upkeep step — <br /><br />Martyrdom seems like a lost boy of Oracle. No other spell grants a creature an ability with the caveat that only you can use that ability. The restriction only even makes sense if you could target an opponent's creature, to keep them from also activating the effect and redirecting the damage you've redirected. But it specifices it can only target a creature you control. The original card doesn't have this clause, so I feel like it's an old change that hasn't been looked at for a number of years.Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-40062492725009232622014-10-17T07:19:16.615-04:002014-10-17T07:19:16.615-04:00I don't see the introduction of the hourglass ...I don't see the introduction of the hourglass symbol as any different to the introduction of keywords for hexproof, vigilance, haste and so on. During their first couple of years, provide reminder text for what the symbol means. After that, the symbol is no more cryptic than a keyword someone doesn't understand. (Though I guess a symbol is a little harder to google.) <br /><br />There's always Tips & Tricks cards in boosters.AlexChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674122775216494431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-13796410523834889062014-10-17T07:14:40.174-04:002014-10-17T07:14:40.174-04:00Awesome! And the more of these I see, the more I l...Awesome! And the more of these I see, the more I like the proposal. I mean, yes, these wordings are fairly silly in many cases, but that's because the cards are silly; these wordings make a better job of silly original cards than the current Oracle wording does.<br /><br />Tiny nitpicks: I think I'd prefer to frontload "Any player may activate" whenever it's present, as it's a different kind of modifier - an extra permission being granted. So I'd reorder "Only during an upkeep step, any player may activate" as "Any player may activate, only during an upkeep step". Also Martyrdom's "Only you may activate" probably can't be forced into this system (it doesn't use the current standard either of putting the restriction inside the ability).AlexChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674122775216494431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-20903936676347324172014-10-16T14:31:52.073-04:002014-10-16T14:31:52.073-04:00Impressive work, Mr Grayson.Impressive work, Mr Grayson.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-34777521675657766092014-10-16T14:23:22.675-04:002014-10-16T14:23:22.675-04:00If you’ve controlled NAME continuously since the b...If you’ve controlled NAME continuously since the beginning of your most recent turn — <br />Metalcraft — If you control three or more artifacts — <br />Metalcraft — only during your upkeep, if you control three or more artifacts — <br />Morbid — If a creature died this turn — <br />No more than three times each turn — <br />No more than twice each turn — <br />No more times each turn than the number of snow Swamps you control — <br />Not during combat — <br />Not during your turn — <br />Only any opponent may activate — <br />Only before blockers are declared — <br />Only before combat damage step — <br />Only before the end of combat step — <br />Only during an opponent’s turn, before attackers are declared — <br />Only during an opponent’s turn, before combat — <br />Only during an opponent’s upkeep — <br />Only during an upkeep step — <br />Only during an upkeep step, any player may activate — <br />Only during combat — <br />Only during combat, after blockers are declared — <br />Only during combat, before attackers are declared — <br />Only during combat, if defending player controls a snow land — <br />Only during combat, if defending player controls no snow lands — <br />Only during the declare attackers step, if you’ve been attacked this step — <br />Only during the declare blockers step — <br />Only during the declare blockers step, once each turn, if at least one creature is blocking NAME — <br />Only during the end of combat step — <br />Only during your turn — <br />Only during your turn, before attackers are declared — <br />Only during your turn, once each turn — <br />Only during your upkeep — <br />Only during your upkeep, if NAME isn’t enchanted — <br />Only during your upkeep, if three or more creature cards are above NAME — <br />Only during your upkeep, if you control a Swamp — <br />Only during your upkeep, once each turn — <br />Only once each turn — <br />Only once each turn, if an opponent controls a creature with flying — <br />Only once each turn, if NAME is a creature — <br />Only once each turn, if you control a snow Mountain — <br />Only once each turn, if you control no creatures — <br />Only when you could cast an instant — <br />Only you may activate — <br />Raid — If you attacked with a creature this turn — <br />Threshold — If seven or more cards are in your graveyard — <br />Threshold — HOURGLASS, if seven or more cards are in your graveyard — <br />Threshold — Only once each turn, if seven or more cards are in your graveyard — Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-62922191388345374242014-10-16T14:22:58.498-04:002014-10-16T14:22:58.498-04:00There are 354 cards (or so) with restictions on th...There are 354 cards (or so) with restictions on their activated abilities. This is all of those restrictions, as written from HavelockV's proposed template.<br /><br />Any player may activate — <br />Any player may activate, only during his or her draw step — <br />Any player may activate, only during his or her turn — <br />Any player may activate, only during his or her turn, before the end step — <br />Any player may activate, only if he or she controls enchanted creature — <br />Any player may activate, only if he or she owns NAME — <br />Forecast — Only during your upkeep, once each turn — <br />Hellbent — If you have no cards in hand — <br />HOURGLASS — <br />HOURGLASS, Any player may activate — <br />HOURGLASS, only once each turn — <br />If an opponent controls four or more lands — <br />If an opponent controls more lands than you — <br />If an opponent was dealt damage this turn — <br />If enchanted creature is untapped — <br />If enchanted creature is white, and is untapped, only once each turn — <br />If enchanted land is untapped — <br />If NAME blocked or was blocked by a blue creature this turn — <br />If NAME entered the battlefield this turn — <br />If NAME has four or more quest counters on it — <br />If NAME is attacking — <br />If NAME is attacking or blocking, only once each turn — <br />If NAME is in your graveyard — <br />If NAME is on the stack, any player may activate — <br />If NAME is suspended — <br />If NAME’s power is 4 or greater — <br />If there are no charge counters on NAME — <br />If two or more hatchling counters are on NAME — <br />If you control a Demon — <br />If you control an Island — <br />If you control a Plains — <br />If you control a Sliver — <br />If you control a Swamp — <br />If you control five or more lands — <br />If you control five or more Vampires — <br />If you control four or more snow permanents — <br />If you control no creatures — <br />If you control two or more black permanents — <br />If you control two or more blue permanents — <br />If you control two or more green permanents — <br />If you control two or more red permanents — <br />If you control two or more white permanents — <br />If you have exactly seven card in hand — <br />If you have more cards in hand than each opponent — <br />If you have no cards in hand — Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-56434049491242802782014-10-15T18:24:11.683-04:002014-10-15T18:24:11.683-04:00Ant, in my experience, new players always think th...Ant, in my experience, new players always think that activated abilities can only work at sorcery speed. For example, I just saw two new players (both women) playing and I asked one, "why didn't you attack with Sarkhan?" She said, "He has summoning sickness." New players presume only instants and flash cards can go outside of turn order. They often think lands have summoning sickness. Timing is a lot more confusing than I think you're giving it credit for. In fact, I think the discussion would be like this:<br /><br />NEW PLAYER: What's this hourglass thing?<br />OLD PLAYER: It means you can only do it as a sorcery.<br />NEW PLAYER: What do you mean?<br />OLD PLAYER: Normally, you can activate things whenever you want. This means this one can't. Only when you could play sorceries, creatures, etc.<br />NEW PLAYER: So, the ones with the hourglass work the way I thought and aren't special, and all the other abilities work differently to how I thought, but aren't labeled as such?<br />OLD PLAYER: Yes.<br />NEW PLAYER: Ok. It's weird.<br />OLD PLAYER: I know.<br />NEW PLAYER: I feel like I'm an analogical construct manipulated to prove a point.<br />OLD PLAYER: YOU'RE RUINING MAGIC<br />NEW PLAYER: I'm off to play with my pet unicorn in this fantastic world of make believe.<br />OLD PLAYER: I think Bass has lost it.<br />BASS: I am quite tired and I kinda lost what my point was.<br />NEW PLAYER: Uni!Basshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796834860620921124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-44157550145705870132014-10-15T18:17:22.804-04:002014-10-15T18:17:22.804-04:00I think the "—" in the Outlast reminder ...I think the "—" in the Outlast reminder text is a mistake, as it makes it seem far more complex. The hourglass symbol is a nice idea, but it just puts me off.<br /><br />I do really like the first one, the Cinder Wretch thing. That looks terrific (there is a problem in multiple activated abilities with different timings, but I think there's a design problem in having two different timings on the same card, so I'd be glad if that graphic design reduced the chances of such cards).<br /><br />Here's my solution to salvaging the hourglass symbol: to the left of the card type line or underneath the mana cost, there should be an hourglass symbol on everything but instants and cards with flash. That way, you instinctively would know that symbol has to do with when you can play things. That would then make it's appearance in card text seem more natural and consistent.<br /><br />The only problem is that the symbol could only ever mean, "As a sorcery" which means other timings couldn't be represented, which to me, feels like keywording things like mill. There's a number of related effects, but only one is getting iconized/shortened/keyword, and not the rest. I think the Wretch is the best one.Basshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796834860620921124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-48431668166424052662014-10-15T11:48:43.982-04:002014-10-15T11:48:43.982-04:00A bit late on the conversation, but I'd like t...A bit late on the conversation, but I'd like to point out that MaRo is contrary to symbols for sorcery speed. A quick research on Blogatog:<br />http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/71241186366/would-you-consider-making-a-sorcery-speed-icon-for<br />http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/61476497709/if-you-could-make-a-symbol-that-could-easily-denote-an (In the second link he clearly meant "NOT used enough")P for Pizzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05000340281390449308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-12968215193485252602014-10-15T05:11:06.544-04:002014-10-15T05:11:06.544-04:00I was also tought something simular as HavelockV, ...I was also tought something simular as HavelockV, but i said it firstLompe Luitenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00232072982510783952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-81840370753744239922014-10-14T19:54:07.639-04:002014-10-14T19:54:07.639-04:00The hourglass treatment is awesome, and clearly sa...The hourglass treatment is awesome, and clearly says "Hey there are different-than-normal time restrictions on this ability"<br /><br />Any existing player will easily adopt the hourglass to mean "sorcery speed only:<br /><br />and I can see any new player scenario going something like this:<br /><br />NEW PLAYER: whats this hourglass thing?<br />OLD PLAYER: you know how normal activated abilities can be done at any time?<br />NEW PLAYER: Yea?<br />OLD PLAYER: That symbol means you can only do it at any time you could cast a sorcery or an artifact or creature. Its slower to use.<br />NEW PLAYER: oh ok!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00635539352914988972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-53021085454941394712014-10-14T15:16:05.801-04:002014-10-14T15:16:05.801-04:00I think Mark Rosewater has strongly hinted (or sai...I think Mark Rosewater has strongly hinted (or said?) that he would prefer it if magic had an instant supertype that could be applied to all types of spells including sorceries, instead of having permanents-with-flash and instants. But also that it probably wouldn't change now.<br /><br />I'm worried a symbol would be harder to learn because it doesn't say what it does, but I agree something like would be really good. Or maybe, make abilities sorcery speed by default and have an instant-speed rider, or have indicate a phase you can play them in, or something?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-91681640059809696432014-10-14T15:09:21.679-04:002014-10-14T15:09:21.679-04:00Excellent treatment. I'm not sure whether we w...Excellent treatment. I'm not sure whether we want the clearer graphical treatment, but if not I'm totally on board with moving to the final template.Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-59971179964661433002014-10-14T15:05:17.092-04:002014-10-14T15:05:17.092-04:00The above is exactly my stance as well, but given ...The above is exactly my stance as well, but given that we're in no position to reboot I think a clear Sorcery-speed symbol is one of our better bets. Alternatively, if we implement HavelockV and Bass' setup, perhaps we can cleanly make the change by keeping new cards with sorcery speed activations still looking distinct from old instant speed ones.Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-76532683153326080162014-10-14T11:40:35.261-04:002014-10-14T11:40:35.261-04:00To clarify: in my dream rebooted Magic, all spells...To clarify: in my dream rebooted Magic, all spells and abilities default to sorcery speed. A lightning bolt symbol denotes creatures with flash, sorceries with flash (previously known as instants), and some activated abilities.HavelockVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698268009797139251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-33451739119061176202014-10-14T11:05:34.500-04:002014-10-14T11:05:34.500-04:00Agreed! See the edit in the body of the post.Agreed! See the edit in the body of the post.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-25386650749636996142014-10-14T09:18:01.955-04:002014-10-14T09:18:01.955-04:00Me too. It's high on my "if we could rebo...Me too. It's high on my "if we could reboot Magic" list. HavelockVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698268009797139251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-21602602671963543002014-10-14T09:13:02.053-04:002014-10-14T09:13:02.053-04:00I believe so. Seems no worse than:
Enchanted crea...I believe so. Seems no worse than:<br /><br />Enchanted creature has "T: Target player discards a card. Activate this ability only during your turn."<br /><br />Though ability-granting doesn't play well with Evan's graphical highlighting idea, which is otherwise very compelling for its clarity.<br /><br />I'm more iffy on whether this template reads well for non-timing restrictions. I'm not in love with the new Bloodshot Trainee.<br /><br />Honestly, the only way to be certain about this sort of thing is to give such cards to new players and see which group parses them more quickly and accurately.HavelockVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698268009797139251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-77011045084316660342014-10-14T08:55:58.331-04:002014-10-14T08:55:58.331-04:00Very on-board with this iteration, but we do have ...Very on-board with this iteration, but we do have to make sure we have a clean way of writing the granting of these abilities. Would the following be correct in this setup? Is it sufficiently parseable? <br /><br />Enchanted creature has "During your turn only - T: Target player discards a card."<br /><br />Put a colorless artifact token named Battery onto the battlefield. It has "During your turn only - Sacrifice this artifact: untap target permanent."Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-56321760904693107772014-10-14T08:51:14.496-04:002014-10-14T08:51:14.496-04:00I agree this would be very helpful. I agree this would be very helpful. Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-40929609777715909712014-10-14T02:39:40.916-04:002014-10-14T02:39:40.916-04:00I've always wished there was a "Sorcery s...I've always wished there was a "Sorcery speed" symbol to put in front of abilities. Maybe the symbol of a clock?<br />There are many abilities and mechanics that would play better/more balanced/more strategically if they are restricted to sorcery speed, but it costs so much space on the card to state the timing.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-4517858365980299142014-10-14T02:36:52.829-04:002014-10-14T02:36:52.829-04:00I this, and Evan's mockup of it is very clear....I this, and Evan's mockup of it is very clear. <br />Way better than cluttering the ability text with the explanation of the restrictions. People can parse the info quickly and intuitively when the info is chunked.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-49153993773938691882014-10-14T01:08:56.284-04:002014-10-14T01:08:56.284-04:00Props to Jay for thinking outside the box and tryi...Props to Jay for thinking outside the box and trying to figure out how to increase clarity. I am in agreement that restrictions don't belong with the ability text, but they don't really belong with the cost either<br /><br />I am not a graphic designer, but I wonder if something like this might be more appropriate: <br /><a href="http://i.imgur.com/m5eQ07y.png" rel="nofollow">Mockup</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17647677781801914930noreply@blogger.com