tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post1313251035925507682..comments2024-03-11T02:32:15.295-04:00Comments on Goblin Artisans: CCDD 101415—An alternative to devoidUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-85284285040827778982015-10-19T19:10:37.543-04:002015-10-19T19:10:37.543-04:00I missed the part that Devoid would still be on th...I missed the part that Devoid would still be on the cards with twobrid casting costs. Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-15021004344291229702015-10-19T12:43:30.589-04:002015-10-19T12:43:30.589-04:00My point (and I am far from the only person that s...My point (and I am far from the only person that said this) is that it is less a lie to put the ability Devoid on a card that costs 2{2/B}. <br /><br />Now, as you say, design space for cards that cost 2{2/B} is much narrower than for Devoid as used in BFZ, because in BFZ they just stapled it on any random card they felt like. But I would argue the narrower is actually a good thing, because it is important that colorless cards feel colorless. <br /><br />I do think you are a bit too narrow in your definition of what could be done at twobrid, since twobrid should be a bit wider than Phyrexian mana. A 1{2/B]{2/B} complete disregard is probably okay, for example. Oracle of Dust could probably even cost just 4{2/U} these days. <br /><br />But, to be clear, my claim isn't that they should have made exactly the same set with 2briddevoid instead of current Devoid. Rather, my claim is that if they wanted to make colored colorless spells, this is a less egregious way they could have done it.Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-11576511380905944212015-10-19T11:59:50.485-04:002015-10-19T11:59:50.485-04:00Draft is a bunch of easy choices consecutively. S...Draft is a bunch of easy choices consecutively. Sealed is one really hard choice that you have half an hour to make, and is somewhat lenticular in that the less you know, the easier that choice is. On the other hand, as a new player the idea of 45 consecutive decisions where you have to read all the cards is daunting. <br /><br />Nothing I have said should be construed as my saying "The prerelease format should be draft," but may be construed as "maybe the prerelease format doesn't always have to be sealed." I don't think this is especially controversial, since the prerelease format hasn't been sealed for years until BFZ (sealed where you select your colors in advance is a totally different format, and one they almost certainly should have used here). <br /><br />Your concerns about sealed at prereleases are definitely legitimate, though, is far less serious, to me, than the issue of sealed at GPs and PTQs in environments where sealed is unbalanced or less interesting (that is, almost every sealed environment). People who take these events seriously are forced not only to play the format for two days, but also to play tons of practice events as practice. Being forced to play sealed over draft as practice in formats where draft is more fun is a tax on the fun of a large number of players.Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-41139133390526489012015-10-19T11:39:16.833-04:002015-10-19T11:39:16.833-04:00When you say twobrid would have unified Eldrazi in...When you say twobrid would have unified Eldrazi in colorlessness, what do you mean? A spell that costs 2(2/B) is still Black whether you pay 2B or 4.<br /><br />Twobrid doesn't protect the color pie. Sure the extra cost helps protect it when you're creating cards that could be artifact creatures, like a Flying 1/1 for (2/W), but what about things that don't appear in every color? Complete Disregard, Molten Nursery, Oracle of Dust, etc, couldn't have twobrid costs. That leaves you only with designs in the safe spaces of the color pie. Designs that could be artifacts or artifact creatures. Unless I'm missing something. Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-1863679769041311682015-10-19T09:53:46.230-04:002015-10-19T09:53:46.230-04:00Yup. Draft is far scarier until you get the hang o...Yup. Draft is far scarier until you get the hang of it. Kind of a deal-breaker for the prerelease.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-89192847514633531882015-10-19T09:51:10.715-04:002015-10-19T09:51:10.715-04:00The relative difficulty of sealed and draft scales...The relative difficulty of sealed and draft scales interestingly as as the skill of the player and familiarity with the format increases. Once you hit a certain (not too high) threshold, drafting is way easier. I always note when doing sealed with newer players I am always the last to finish building and always wish I had more time, and when doing draft it is always reversed. Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-60636123440619061892015-10-19T09:30:28.069-04:002015-10-19T09:30:28.069-04:00Also make that format as straight-forward and appr...Also make that format as straight-forward and approachable as Sealed.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-61211931979531482802015-10-18T15:27:17.198-04:002015-10-18T15:27:17.198-04:00I think Tommy's solution of twobrid would have...I think Tommy's solution of twobrid would have been great. It means that Eldrazi would have been unified by colorlessness, high converted mana cost and creature type. There's plenty of nonparasitic designs that could have been made there. Wobbleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11494097707732649864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-44808340351368897552015-10-16T16:14:57.678-04:002015-10-16T16:14:57.678-04:00Why does every set have to have the same way of be...Why does every set have to have the same way of being introduced? That is dangerous and restrictive! I'm not saying that they have to abandon sealed (I even like sealed), I'm just saying that there are many alternatives to explore other than tanking your whole design so that sealed works. One could aspire to make the best sealed set possible sometimes, but that should not detract from sometimes making the best draft set possible, and good draft sets will tend to be bad sealed sets.<br /><br />The unfortunate thing is that WOTC had the perfect solution to the fact that sealed is a poor format for synergistic sets: seeded packs. Unfortunately, due to griping about how annoying seeded packs were to experienced players, WOTC disbanded the seeded packs right before releasing a set where it was justified. (For what it is worth, it was probably also justified when the started it in RTR.) <br /><br />I think, what this ultimately comes down to, is the fact that WOTC doesn't understand what makes a good and a bad sealed format, and they keep using sealed because of inertia and the fact that it would be night impossible to run a draft GP. <br /><br />And this isn't intended to be judgmental of WOTC, I certainly don't know how to make a great sealed format either, and sealed is such a low priority for everyone that nothing ever gets done about it. <br /><br />What is worth noting is that Team Sealed is usually a fantastic format when draft is good. It is one of my favorite formats to play even for two players. <br /><br />Aside: I think sealed has a higher skill cap than draft. You are given a wide variety of piles, and must make the best deck you possibly can out of a pile of cards that really have no innate desire to help you. You'll end up with great rares in shallow colors, enablers for things you can't support, and overall just a giant mess. To turn that into the best thing it can be is an art, and a beautiful and incredibly complex puzzle. What I am describing is the ultimate Spike activity, and something other profiles would have very little interest in.<br /><br />Unfortunately, after this huge enormous skill cap, you then add on a huge amount of variance. Some pools are just great and work well, others are awful. Some people open three Pack Rats, and others open none. In the end, the net effect, in my experience, is that while sealed has a much higher skill cap than draft, it is much less skill-testing because the variance between pools undoes a lot of the added skill.<br /><br />Exercise: Design a format that is as skill-testing as sealed, but simultaneously also involves less variance and appeals more to other psychographics.Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-5009475468019364492015-10-16T13:54:23.287-04:002015-10-16T13:54:23.287-04:00To abandon the format that introduces the set beca...To abandon the format that introduces the set because draft is better (and it is) is dangerously elitist. And I don't agree at all that we can blame this on Sealed. Every format has strengths and weaknesses, but not set has been as terrible for Sealed in 15 years as this one.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-78963590746420293322015-10-16T13:01:53.312-04:002015-10-16T13:01:53.312-04:00Addendum: The statement that for experienced play...Addendum: The statement that for experienced players (and Magic Online especially) draft is the most important format has been universally true for many years. For evidence, one need only look at Twitch numbers historically. It was nigh impossible to find people streaming constructed. <br /><br />This, however, has shifted quite dramatically in the past year or so. I noticed it most strongly around the release of Origins, but there is a continuing tide moving towards streaming constructed and away from limited. <br /><br />Editorializing, I think this is because they haven't made a great limited format in many years (since Innistrad). Is this because they want people spending the money on the more expensive format? Who can say. I, for one, hope that BfZ ends up among the greats. Time will only tell.Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-7673149368521229982015-10-16T12:56:47.005-04:002015-10-16T12:56:47.005-04:00To me, this is a problem with sealed not a problem...To me, this is a problem with sealed not a problem with BfZ. Sealed formats are just bad for highly synergistic sets with nuanced archetypes. But, at least to experienced drafters, highly synergistic formats with nuanced archetypes are the good formats. This is exactly why Rise of the Eldrazi was marketed as "a set designed just for draft," as opposed to "a set designed for limited," because they knew it would not translate well to sealed. <br /><br />There are two unfortunate side effects, though. One is that prereleases are typically done with sealed, so the more nuanced and synergistic a format is the worse its prerelease is likely to be. The opposite end of the spectrum, KTK, for example, was great in sealed because it barely had arcehtypes at all, every keyword was in every deck, etc. <br /><br />The second problem specific to BFZ is that because expeditions exist a ton of players are opting to play sealed instead of draft online because they double their chances of opening an expedition, even though this is a format you should probably never play in sealed. <br /><br />The answer to this, though, is not to design sets that are better for sealed. That makes draft way less interesting, and for experienced players (and Magic Online especially) draft is the most important format. Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-76562548387054439062015-10-16T11:19:00.542-04:002015-10-16T11:19:00.542-04:00The problem with processor's parasitism in Sea...The problem with processor's parasitism in Sealed is twofold: First, it's *doubly* parasitic: I can't play allies w/o enough allies and I can't play colorless-matters w/o enough colorless, but I can neither play ingest w/o processors nor processors w/o ingest. Second, most every set has one parasitic mechanic, but BfZ has a ton. Far too much. Sealed has a weakness to linear themes, but every other set for the past 10 years has handled that by limiting linear themes. BfZ makes for a miserable Sealed environment, and that's not okay because Sealed is the prerelease and if players hate the prerelease, they won't pay as much attention to the set after.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-46717452402474027802015-10-15T22:48:30.592-04:002015-10-15T22:48:30.592-04:00Processing not being an ability word (not a keywor...Processing not being an ability word (not a keyword action though as Nich is suggesting) has been acknowledged as being a potential mistake by Maro on Blogatog.<br /><br />Otherwise I actually really dislike a lot of the alternate rules for processing proposed here.<br /><br />Sealed doesn't reward synergy at a fundamental level, this is more an issue with that format than any parasitism problems. Do hate tribal themes because they don't work in sealed?<br /><br />The cast triggers are fairly confusing and shouldn't be used frequently. They are clearly reserved for the large colorless Eldrazi to make you feel good even if they are countered or bounced.<br /><br />You say the processors are unattractively costed yet all the processors EXCEPT Murk Strider pass the vanilla test for the most part.<br /><br />Why do you think the first activated ability needs to not cost a process? Cards like Cryptic Cruiser and Oracle of Dust have been playing extremely well in the dozen BFZ limited events I've done.<br /><br />The pay 3 or process 2 wording is unacceptable at common. Reads badly, weakens the fun ingest synergy and the associated "hungry" and "interconnected" eldrazi feeling and is even more wordy than what you are trying to replace.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05070477543367469910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-81970774310769289552015-10-15T18:03:18.488-04:002015-10-15T18:03:18.488-04:00One more thought, is it really a good idea to be f...One more thought, is it really a good idea to be forming opinions of the set based on half of the cards? I recognize that sets should be good on their own merit, but BFZ is a lot of things, and one of the big ones is that it's the first half of the first block to have the new block structure.<br /><br />I want to wait until we see what the plans are for Part II before I start to think about whether or not devoid does enough for the cards it's built to support.Devin E. Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09216945116878064817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-15467767216250910382015-10-15T16:12:24.662-04:002015-10-15T16:12:24.662-04:00I was always sad I could not Ghoulcaller's Cha...I was always sad I could not Ghoulcaller's Chant back two Moan of the Unhalloweds. Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-90985044633894405902015-10-15T16:04:40.922-04:002015-10-15T16:04:40.922-04:0020 cards care about colorless, actually.
http://ga...20 cards care about colorless, actually.<br /><a href="http://tinyurl.com/p2cuqnj" rel="nofollow">http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=|[%22colorless%20spell%22]|[%22colorless%20creature%22]&set=[%22Battle%20for%20Zendikar%22]</a><br /><br />Nettle Drone definitely works with morph. Does Herald of Kozilek not?<br /><br />I quite like the argument that devoid isn't any better than tribal was.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-66659520416077575392015-10-15T15:40:24.950-04:002015-10-15T15:40:24.950-04:00I count 13. Anyway, If there was no devoid, all th...I count 13. Anyway, If there was no devoid, all these cards could have swapped "colorless creature" for "Eldrazi creature": <br /><br />Conduit of Ruin<br />Gruesome Slaughter<br />Titan's Presence<br />Ruination Guide<br />Tide Drifter<br />Dominator Drone<br />Skitterskin<br />Swarm Surge<br />Barrage Tyrant<br />Vile Aggregate<br />Dust Stalker<br />Forerunner of Slaughter<br />Sanctum of Ugin (both)<br /><br />The loss of interaction with morph and artifact creatures doesn't seem valid to me, because so many of these cards are themselves creatures. How many creature cards are you going to put in your Standard deck? And how many of them won't be one of the cards in the list above that rewards colorless? How many cards that only gets rewarded are you slotting in? 4? 6? Is all the baggage of devoid worth that?<br /><br />Kozilek's Sentinel<br />Molten Nursery<br />Nettle Drone<br />Herald of Kozilek<br />Sanctum of Ugin (both)<br />Shrine of the Forsaken Gods<br /><br />This list doesn't support Devoid at all. It doesn't interact with morph, and although it does with artifacts, it compounds how rewarding artifacts with these spells are not worth the slots in a Standard deck. between these cards and the one in the list above, there's even less room for artifacts in a deck. I think this list does make a strong argument for the use of Tribal - Eldrazi in place of devoid. Oh, that would have been clean and clear. <br /><br />I think Maro's first argument against the Tribal super type completely falls away when you see how devoid was used. I remember him saying Tribal made R&D feel locked in. Every spell would need to explain why if was or wasn't Tribal. The trick I think is to use Tribal only when it makes sense for the Block's needs. For Rise of the Eldrazi, it made sense, and I think it would here again. Anyway, I don't think devoid solves the problems Maro talked about with Tribal.Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-5161177904251336722015-10-15T15:12:19.748-04:002015-10-15T15:12:19.748-04:00I counted 11 when I did a rough count, and some of...I counted 11 when I did a rough count, and some of them are cards with an as-played of 0 (like Hedron Blade) or have a mostly irrelevant interaction (like Conduit of Ruin), but point taken, it does appear on more cards than it has felt like in my play of the set so far. <br /><br />Just from play, the only one I'd have named as having a "real" effect is Ruination Guide. I have seen the +0/+1 from Tide Drifter matter, but I expect that won't often be the case. Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-40437603979688960972015-10-15T14:53:33.354-04:002015-10-15T14:53:33.354-04:0015 cards care about colorless creatures, so "...15 cards care about colorless creatures, so "Devoid interacts with almost nothing" is misleading.<br /><br />Otherwise, I understand and appreciate your argument.<br /><br />I was shocked to learn there are <i>55</i> devoid cards. That's a lot.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-80485818740530124322015-10-15T13:58:12.928-04:002015-10-15T13:58:12.928-04:00First, I think defining colors on cards with 0 cos...First, I think defining colors on cards with 0 cost and back-sides of DFCs is a very reasonable thing to do, and even the very occasional Cloistered Youth or Garruk Relentless doesn't bother me overly much. Color has a literal game defined meaning of "the color used to cast this spell" so letting Ancestral Vision be anything other than Blue would be pretty inexcusable. In Innistrad, the theme was transformation, about things becoming other than what they are. Cloistered Youth showed this very cleanly, and notably the Blackness of Cloistered Youth was never mechanically relevant (which I consider important). <br /><br />Unlike Color, there is no guiding force defining creature type. How do you know what creature type something is? You look at the type line. You can, mechanically, make anything any creature type. I really don't buy that Changeling is anything other than a shorthand for putting all the creature types in the type line. It is just like "Wall" used to be, it is a creature type that carries a bit of additional rules significant, but it doesn't violate anything. <br /><br />So to me, the analogy between Changeling and Devoid totally does not hold up. The rule for color is "it is the color of mana necessary to play the spell" and the rule for creature type is "it is whatever we say it is." It is not possible to violate the second rule, but it is possible to violate the first. <br /><br />I don't think there is any payoff that would make Devoid worth doing, but another key difference is that Changeling was an integral piece of the set that interacted mechanically with everything going on, while Devoid interacts with almost nothing. <br /><br />Finally, I'll say, I do think rules like the one that defines the color of a permanent or spell can give a little. I'd have been fine with a single WWUUBBRRGG cost mythic eldrazi with the line "~ is colorless." Ghostfire made a lot of sense in the days of everything having Pro Red (though I think it would never have been common if it wasn't in Future Sight). But there is a difference between doing something very, very rarely and doing it on 55 cards in one set. I can not think of anything Magic has done mechanically that I find offensive in the same regard as Devoid. [For example, they avoided printing cards that would artificially add to your Devotion, even though they were obvious designs.]<br /><br />All that said, the upside is that Devoid is basically flavortext anyway, it degrades the quality of the product, but since it matters so, so little, it can't possibly cost the set more than a third of a letter grade. That said, I hope this isn't a sign of things to come. Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-60253820391861318372015-10-15T12:17:19.770-04:002015-10-15T12:17:19.770-04:00Twobrid really would have helped sell devoid, esp ...Twobrid really would have helped sell devoid, esp on the gold cards.<br /><br />Changeling absolutely redefines cards. Yes, you couldn't physically list every creature type on the type line, but that's not the issue: You never would make a creature that's all types. All creatures have 1-3 creature types because a creature's types illustrate what that creature is. Minotaur Merfolk Cat Sphinx isn't a thing. In fact, the creatures with changeling have the only creature type that fits them printed on their type line: shapeshifter. Changeling is extremely analogous to devoid. The only significant difference between them is that one adds every [type] while the other subtracts every [color]. Again, I do agree that subtraction is both messier and less meaningful, but otherwise the concepts are kin.<br /><br />Consider also permanents with 0 cost. The back-side of DFCs, tokens, and Kobolds of Kher Keep. By default, all of these would be colorless. It is only by explicitly defining their color through text (or the more modern color indicator). This is the exact same thing as devoid, except that it's addition instead of subtraction (and that's significant).Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-1235830133108138292015-10-15T11:58:51.283-04:002015-10-15T11:58:51.283-04:00I agree with all of Nich's concerns about proc...I agree with all of Nich's concerns about processors and find his solution reasonable.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-19829787734094417542015-10-15T11:40:55.318-04:002015-10-15T11:40:55.318-04:00Why do you assume if they had not used Devoid that...Why do you assume if they had not used Devoid that Ulamog's Nullifier would have another ability? If they had not done Devoid Ulamog's Nullifier would be a simpler, cleaner card, with a normal frame and one fewer line of text. It isn't like Devoid is holding up some crucial spot in the set that if it was gone would need to be replace by Flompling. <br /><br />The only argument for Devoid that speaks to me is Jay's, that Devoid allows them to print backwards compatible cards, like I can use my Ruination Guide to give my Thopter tokens +1/+0, an especially interacting with Morph and Ghostfire Blade and the like. That, I acknowledge, is a significant benefit to the way they have structured Devoid in BFZ. That said, it is, in my estimation, no where near worth the huge cost of printing gold colorless cards (and it is just mind-boggling to me that they even considered such a thing). Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-90709477619145397122015-10-15T10:30:36.992-04:002015-10-15T10:30:36.992-04:00(continued...)
Processor Assault (U)
Sorcery 1R
D...(continued...)<br /><br />Processor Assault (U)<br />Sorcery 1R<br />Devoid (This card has no color.)<br />As an additional cost to cast Processor Assault, pay 2 or process 1. (Put a card an opponent owns from exile into that player’s graveyard.)<br />Processor Assault deals 5 damage to target creature.<br /><br />Ruin Processor (C)<br />Creature -- Eldrazi Processor 7/8 7<br />As an additional cost to cast Ruin Processor, process 1 or pay 2. (Put a card an opponent owns from exile into that player’s graveyard.)<br />When you cast Ruin Processor, you gain 5 life.<br /><br />Blight Herder (R)<br />Creature -- Eldrazi Processor 4/5 5<br />As an additional cost to cast Blight Herder, pay 3 or process 2. (Put two cards your opponents own from exile into their owners’ graveyards.)<br />When you cast Blight Herder, put three 1/1 colorless Eldrazi Scion creature tokens onto the battlefield. They have "Sacrifice this creature: Add 1 to your mana pool."<br /><br />Ulamog’s Despoiler (U)<br />Creature -- Eldrazi Processor 9/9 6<br />As an additional cost to cast Ulamog’s Despoiler, pay 3 or process 2. (Put two cards your opponents own from exile into their owners’ graveyards.)<br /><br />Ulamog’s Nullifier (U)<br />Creature -- Eldrazi Processor 2/3 2UB<br />Devoid (This card has no color.)<br />As an additional cost to cast Ulamog’s Nullifier, pay 3 or process 2. (Put two cards your opponents own from exile into their owners’ graveyards.)<br />Flash, flying<br />When you cast Ulamog’s Nullifier, counter target spell.Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.com