tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post36956177891177925..comments2024-03-11T02:32:15.295-04:00Comments on Goblin Artisans: Tesla: Welcome to Kaladesh - Great ExpectationsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-53188462713384853902015-09-06T16:24:50.800-04:002015-09-06T16:24:50.800-04:00Excellent ideas here, really great stuff. I've...Excellent ideas here, really great stuff. I've actually thought about many of these myself.<br /><br />Regarding the act of 'invention', I agree that it's vital that we nail it. In my own brainstorming and doodling this past week, I've started identifying some basic themes for Kaladesh that we've seen so far, and one of them is definitely 'Express' - the idea of making a vision real, building something new and sharing it with the world. (I'll be talking about the others tomorrow.)<br /><br />I think that this is such a vital part of a world of artifice that it definitely deserves a mechanic. I also think that if we're trying to capture the theme of 'innovation', that our mechanic should be innovative in itself, you know? That's why, whenever I thought about how to express 'invention' through card mechanics, I made sure it was something very exciting and different.<br /><br />In Mirrodin, artifacts are creatures and natural things, that show up everywhere, so I wanted to avoid that. In Tesla - and Kaladesh - artifacts would be something created, something that serves a role, something that doesn't naturally appear, but must be brought forth. I figured this would be a good place to use "Assembling Contraptions" to represent that concept. I thus came to the same conclusion; that "Assembling a Contraption" meant searching for it somehow.<br /><br />However, here lies our difference. I didn't think of putting them in the deck and searching them out. I immediately thought of pulling them from the <i>sideboard</i>, like Wishes do. Or, even more radically, inventing a new zone in the game, like the command zone or the extra deck in Yu-gi-oh, that Contraptions would inhabit until something brought them into existence.<br /><br />Anyway, I plan on discussing this in more detail soon - I was going to dedicate a week (or longer) to discussing the concept of "invention" and what mechanics could represent it. I have quite a few ideas of my own, as this has been a personal project of mine for a long time.<br /><br />Thanks again for the insightful comments, Chah. Great stuff.Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739701478436262740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-28361039805608588442015-09-06T09:21:03.517-04:002015-09-06T09:21:03.517-04:00Steampunk set: Inventions. Inventors. Inventing.
...Steampunk set: Inventions. Inventors. Inventing.<br /><br />If these inventions, machines, gadgets, etc. are in the set, should they be represented by a few one-off cards, like the Greek myth top-down cards such as Horse of Akroas in Theros? Or should it be represented by a mechanic, like the Werewolf mechanic in Innistrad? It's a worthy question but to me this seems like a key thing to nail in a steampunk set, I expect a Steampunk-themed set to have some mechanic to represent inventions.<br /><br />Should the mechanic be about characters of that world inventing machines and gadgets? Or should it be about you, the player, inventing these things? Innistrad showed people getting scared, but also made you, the player, scared. New Phyrexia showed people being violated, but also made you yourself feel violated. This is another worthy question but as for me I feel a steampunk set should make you feel like you yourself are inventive.<br /><br />How could it feel like you invented something? Unless there can be a system where you can design your own cards, I'm not sure how the player can be allowed to invent something other than combining two or more cards in some way. It doesn't have to be the Mecha mechanic, I think Imprint did a great job of allowing people to invent something inside the game. It probably isn't a good idea to do Imprint in a set struggling to distinguish itself from Mirrodin, but it is just an example that there may be several possible ways to allow the player to "make" something, and that at least one of them worked in a real life set.<br /><br />The artifact set (that isn't Mirrodin):<br />You play less artifacts (your deck isn't half artifacts like in Mirrodin) but maybe there are more ways to search them up. <br /><br />The search can represent the act of invention. A creature, or you the player has conceived of a dream artifact, then quested to make it real through research or other means. <br /><br />Of course, we don't want a set where every other creature card is a Stoneforge Mystic, but I think it's possible to come up with something that isn't blatantly powerful/variance-killing as straight-up tutoring is.<br /><br />For example, riffing off of one of the proposed mechanics, there could be a mechanic that turns cards in the middle of your library face up. You would see them (possibly choosing which cards are turned face up), then work to mill yourself towards them as a kind of research. <br /><br />Also, the new Eldrazi seem to have a theme of exiling your opponents cards and powering up from them. So in a similar way there could be cards that exile cards from the top of your library into an "idea pile" or "vision pile," then you get to pull one of those into reality (or rather, into your hand or the battlefield) if you achieve some condition. Those cards can work together, the way the Eldrazi work together. The number of cards exiled from your library could be like the measure of your research progress.<br /><br />The specific mechanics are just examples, but to sum it up, what I imagine is that you get an artifact to play, not because you have a deck chock-full of artifacts like in Mirrodin, but because you are working to pull an artifact out of your deck somehow, representing the act of working on an invention.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-52659430556235845662015-09-06T09:18:32.316-04:002015-09-06T09:18:32.316-04:00Kaladesh set:
I really need to research Indian cul...Kaladesh set:<br />I really need to research Indian culture to make a suggestion, since the things I imagine about traditional Indian mythology (mysticism, etc.) don't directly fit into Steampunk.<br /><br />I feel Kamigawa really nailed the spirit of Japanese mythology (everything having a spirit). As a Japanese person, after seeing Japan misrepresented in media for so many years, it was amazing to see a fantasy Japanese world that not only rings true to the spirit of Japanese folklore, but is also properly different from the real Japan in the same way that a sword-and-sorcery world is not a carbon copy of medieval Europe. <br /><br />It would be ideal to capture the right themes for India too. I wonder what would be a concept for India that is what "everything has a spirit" is to Japan. Fate and Karma come to mind, but that seems at odds with a steampunk society like Kaladesh.<br /><br />Of course, it's also possible we should just stick to the more contemporary issues rather than hope to understand the soul of India in a web project. Maybe the real Kaladesh isn't about delving into Indian mythology either, and just wanted diversity?<br /><br />For contemporary issues, the class divide mentioned above seems like a good theme.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-23557490614409808332015-09-06T01:16:49.072-04:002015-09-06T01:16:49.072-04:00"Now Karn's mind is clear, and he has swo..."Now Karn's mind is clear, and he has sworn to find a way to prevent other planes from falling to the same fate as Mirrodin..."<br /><br />"The same fate" could refer to the Phyrexians, but you could also read it to include the more general themes of corruption through abuse of an unknown energy source that some of us have discussed above.<br /><br />+1 for Daretti. More nonhuman planeswalkers please WotC! (Being a double amputee in a wicked-ass steampunk wheelchair doesn't hurt either!)Jenesishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05356037137564501914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-15612526905512186082015-09-05T23:14:57.915-04:002015-09-05T23:14:57.915-04:00If we're using a young protagonist - and I agr...If we're using a young protagonist - and I agree it makes sense, it's perfect for the Punk genre - then it's best to have them be a part of the "streetwise and alienated youths who were rebellious to the Establishment". This can be either the free-spirited artificers or the natural mages.<br /><br />I think portraying the story of Kaladesh through multiple perspectives - on many different levels - may be a good idea. In other words, perhaps we should have multiple young protagonists, each fighting their own fight, their own aspect of the 'establishment'? Immediately, I think of these three 'levels':<br /><br />- A fugitive natural mage, who has grown up their entire life in fear of being discovered. They see artifice as a symbol of the consul's oppression, and only they know aether canisters for what they truly are.<br /><br />- A free-spirited young artificer who strains against the consul's system and surveillance, and serves in a rebellious underground of riggers, who make machinery that isn't sanctioned by the government. (Perhaps all artificers in Kaladesh must have their inventions reviewed by the government and give up their rights to their work.)<br /><br />- A philosophical up-and-comer in the consul's bureaucracy. Not down to earth or truly understanding of the people's plight, but they are also not an oppressor or robber baron - they feel a 'noblesse oblige', act like a 'captain of industry', and dream of what the consul can do for the people. Unfortunately, their efforts cause them to stumble into the conspiracy's line of fire, and they're forced to confront how corrupt the consul is.<br /><br />One from each walk of life - wilderness / slum / metropolis - and each forced to confront the consul in some way.Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739701478436262740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-73662554286396448752015-09-05T17:01:09.614-04:002015-09-05T17:01:09.614-04:00That's a really good point, Nich - a younger p...That's a really good point, Nich - a younger protagonist with a higher profile than Domri Rade could be a really good thing. A young mechanic in Ghirapur would be neat; or a dickensian setting is clearly open to one. I could see a young G character who feels a deep connection to (whatever the source of the aether on this plane is), or even a young civil/robots-rights activist being awesome as well.Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-72821243146315853602015-09-05T16:35:29.049-04:002015-09-05T16:35:29.049-04:00Yeah. That was one reason I was a big fan of the A...Yeah. That was one reason I was a big fan of the Athambia Academy pitch (and why I still tinker with it to this day).Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00440653491352410437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-20355828210943569072015-09-05T11:13:52.526-04:002015-09-05T11:13:52.526-04:00I'm interested in a creative concept with kids...I'm interested in a creative concept with kids around the age of Jace Vryn's Prodigy, Domri Rade, and Kytheon Hero of Akros. This setting is good for a focus on young mages, because the class conflict parallels the conflict between youth and an older generation in charge. Doubling up on how we express the conflict will make it more impactful and evident. Also, this setting works because the conflict is less physical and more intellectual. I can accept a young genius mechanic on Kaladesh more than I would a young demon hunter on Innstrad, or a young hedron scout on zendikar. Finally, I see a lot of young kids at FNM. I recognize they want more of a face in the game. Those kids love the new Jace and Kytheon. Love them.Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-3983064494980696942015-09-04T16:34:53.145-04:002015-09-04T16:34:53.145-04:00The most recent "Where are they now?" ar...The most recent "Where are they now?" article,<br />http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/checking-planeswalkers-2015-2015-08-19,<br />supports both Tezzeret and Daretti, though I think Karn and Koth are a little out of place since their conflicts are more centralized to the Phyrexians.Lefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17314232061312529400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-10105857273081570252015-09-04T14:49:10.729-04:002015-09-04T14:49:10.729-04:00I think Tezzeret and Karn both make great sense, f...I think Tezzeret and Karn both make great sense, for the reasons we've seen above - both in different roles than they played on Mirrodin/Phyrexia, but both with an interest in the progress of Kaladesh.<br /><br />Funnily enough though, although it's Chandra's home plane, in some ways she fits in the least of the Mono-R planeswalkers in a steampunk setting. Tibalt may only have a niche following, but his fashion sense and amorality both have a place in a steam-based universe. Koth could come on his own, or with Karn, Melira, or both, escaping the furnace layers of Mirrodin to a world with a very different attitude toward artifice and humanity. His metalworking skills would come in handy, and as an earth-appreciating {R} character he could have something to say about corrupt civilizations co-opting natural resources.<br /><br />Most fitting, though, I think is Daretti. If Daretti's looking for anywhere, Kaladesh seems a perfect home and staging ground, whether with the constructs and machinations of the consuls in Ghirapur, or in another part of Kaladesh, (a dickensian scrapyard setting, for instance). Imagine, if you will: "Daretti, Scrap Prince".Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-32213076732725427652015-09-04T14:21:12.174-04:002015-09-04T14:21:12.174-04:00Great point, Alex. I think even making our names m...Great point, Alex. I think even making our names more science-y might help, a la Izzet cards such as Mizzium Mortars.Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739701478436262740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-61536100295212004862015-09-04T14:20:18.891-04:002015-09-04T14:20:18.891-04:00I agree that "reckless disregard for nature&q...I agree that "reckless disregard for nature" is so central to magitech stories that it's probably a necessity. The fact we've had so much discussion on what the possible negative side effects for aether canisters could be is a good sign of that.<br /><br />Ah, I see what you mean now. That does seem a lot more fitting, and its analogous but not too much so to India's history. Seems like a good starting point.<br /><br />Good conflicts as well.Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739701478436262740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-28429439790996181282015-09-04T14:18:29.210-04:002015-09-04T14:18:29.210-04:00What age range do you mean by "kids"? I ...What age range do you mean by "kids"? I can agree with something like young adult - many cyberpunk stories are 18s to mid-20s protagonists.<br /><br />"Require a charge" - as in like, an aether canister? I sense a nice inspiration for a mechanic here.<br /><br />"Ambitious personal projects" - For sure. Wacky antiquated technology that <i>actually works</i> because of magic would be super fun. Like Edison's necrophone.<br /><br />Mechs and vehicles we should definitely talk about again. It perfectly relates to our attempts to portray Kaladesh as a plane where artifice is a tool, not a form of life like Mirrodin or Esper. <br /><br />"Outsiders living the old ways" - sounds like a fun archetype in Limited. This could be our G/B archetype - G wants tradition and doesn't like progress, B wants independence and self-reliance.Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739701478436262740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-91869324597769250892015-09-04T14:14:18.072-04:002015-09-04T14:14:18.072-04:00Yeah, for sure. I'm fine with no art, though -...Yeah, for sure. I'm fine with no art, though - many of the best sets I've seen had no art.Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00440653491352410437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-89278841226007454542015-09-04T13:24:13.907-04:002015-09-04T13:24:13.907-04:00While this isn't a nonissue, I don't think...While this isn't a nonissue, I don't think its a pertinent one. We would be committing to an aesthetic choice at some point, and given that we aren't going to be commissioning art, we are limited to what exists. Sure, if we chose a broader fantasy setting it would be easier, but the problem would still exist.<br />Also, while Kaladesh has enough to be recognizable, the relatively few cards gives us plenty of room for art that doesn't match the style. However, it might be worthwhile to go through Origins and list out aesthetic art expectations.Lefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17314232061312529400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-58207126172502049352015-09-04T13:16:35.074-04:002015-09-04T13:16:35.074-04:00Well I think like any place, technology exists alo...Well I think like any place, technology exists alongside nature in society. Kaladesh doesn't have to say that its people were incapable of producing technology, just that the new element of their society pushed them into embracing it at the expense of nature. Tezzeret/Bolas/X didn't so much as bring the technology full formed, they just influenced the locals in such a way as to make technology dominant. <br />I also think the theme of reckless disregard of nature to be a potent one. Pop culture is full of them, Ferngully, FF7, the news. It'd be like Ravnica, except instead of this thing that's in the background, the bottling of the planes mana is causing instability at a much higher rate. It becomes a conflict that's large enough to cement what the block's story is about.<br />Yes, having the consuls be white would be insensitive, but it'd be pretty easy to show them as just power-mad elitists rather than legitimately foreign oppressors while still mimicking the structure of the Indian oppression.<br /><br />Incidentally, this hits on two major color conflicts:<br /><br />Consuls vs dissidents is the White/Red conflict of totalitarianism.<br />Canning mana vs natural mages is the Blue/Green conflict the cost of progress.Lefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17314232061312529400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-81806240444938024452015-09-04T10:28:08.067-04:002015-09-04T10:28:08.067-04:00I think going to Kaladesh is a sensible choice. On...I think going to Kaladesh is a sensible choice. One point I should perhaps mention, though: the moment we pin ourselves to one of Magic's planes with a distinctive look to it, we make it much harder to find artwork from the internet for our cards. I personally don't care at all whether custom cards have artwork or not, but I know a number of people do. Even then I don't think that's an issue severe enough to be worth holding back for, but I just wanted to point out that there aren't going to be very many pictures of Indian steampunk inventors, or Indians riding thopters, etc, for us to use.AlexChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674122775216494431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-841424979007291852015-09-04T10:24:05.892-04:002015-09-04T10:24:05.892-04:00I also went straight from "distinguish from E...I also went straight from "distinguish from Esper" to "avoid coloured artifacts". But that is somewhat vexing given they were one of the good ways to make mecha work in Limited. I'm up for discussing this more.AlexChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674122775216494431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-70296991977504718882015-09-04T10:16:19.242-04:002015-09-04T10:16:19.242-04:00"normal" magic is rare and special; arti...<i>"normal" magic is rare and special; artifice is the de facto way for mages to interact with mana.</i><br /><br />I definitely agree. One simple way to reflect this is in card names. High-magic sets have cards called "Blinding Beam" or "Repel the Darkness"; lower-magic sets call them "Lead Astray" or "Feeling of Dread". "Ground Rift" and "Seismic Stomp" are high-magic names; "Panic Attack" and "Flash of Defiance" are low-magic names. My steampunk set was going for a similar low-magic feel so the common sorceries/instants had names like "Repurpose", "Tragic Turbulence", "Sabotage", and "Euphoric Confidence".AlexChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674122775216494431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-33029591012275776312015-09-04T09:03:19.499-04:002015-09-04T09:03:19.499-04:00This really isn't a fit for Kaladesh, but read...This really isn't a fit for Kaladesh, but reading one of these in reverse "Creatures that artifacts can operate" makes me want to see robot overlords.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-71723247958129834132015-09-04T01:23:53.022-04:002015-09-04T01:23:53.022-04:00Huh, TIL.
Still, Tabak's argument - that basi...Huh, TIL.<br /><br />Still, Tabak's argument - that basic implies it's something every player should know and have with them - is still pretty solid.<br /><br />I definitely like where this idea is going though, of representing canisters with an omnipresent resource. One way is just having lots of stuff make canister tokens... another is having them replace basic lands... etc...Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739701478436262740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-34127393208368254612015-09-04T01:22:11.891-04:002015-09-04T01:22:11.891-04:00Ah, I see Jenesis. Thanks for the clarification! Y...Ah, I see Jenesis. Thanks for the clarification! Yeah, I agree that Kaladesh should definitely reward artifacts, even if it doesn't outright call them out.Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739701478436262740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-9504226458882753192015-09-04T01:19:17.266-04:002015-09-04T01:19:17.266-04:00Correct, Jenesis. And the only green card is anti-...Correct, Jenesis. And the only green card is anti-artifacts. Not very helpful precedent.Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739701478436262740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-81925179487577278722015-09-04T01:18:11.359-04:002015-09-04T01:18:11.359-04:00I considered Tezzeret instead of Ramaz, but I felt...I considered Tezzeret instead of Ramaz, but I felt it'd be too similar to Mirrodin/Esper. However, I think y'all are right - the expectations for his appearance are just too high, and he is a perfect fit.<br /><br />Lee, that's a great point re: Bolas. I'm less sure about having the consuls as planeswalker-installed artificers - it seems troublesome that a plane that is defined by its artifice would have that artifice be the foreign oppressor, not the plane itself, you know? Like, I know it's totally not meant to be this way, but it might seem like it's saying "India plane couldn't do all this technology, another plane must have".<br /><br />This is unfortunate, as I think it'd be awesome to be inspired by India's real history and have a story about its kind of protagonists and its victory. (India's efforts for independence is a rich and epic historical story.)Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739701478436262740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-40790692323189886312015-09-03T22:16:37.364-04:002015-09-03T22:16:37.364-04:00I agree. TEzzeret is a great villain for this stor...I agree. TEzzeret is a great villain for this story.Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.com