tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post4211522162962132267..comments2024-03-11T02:32:15.295-04:00Comments on Goblin Artisans: CCDD 100912—MutateUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-3209777312332970282012-10-12T19:33:19.937-04:002012-10-12T19:33:19.937-04:00Experiment is still a smoothing mechanic on its ow...Experiment is still a smoothing mechanic on its own and all of the cards with an exile clause work fine without being exiled.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-50993529073783731862012-10-12T14:55:43.696-04:002012-10-12T14:55:43.696-04:00Oh, hold on a second. For some reason I've bee...Oh, hold on a second. For some reason I've been reading this mechanic as an overwrite of the stats.Tigthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11018253211543720641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-50106734511167977342012-10-12T10:32:07.315-04:002012-10-12T10:32:07.315-04:00Completely true. I kept the first two simple with ...Completely true. I kept the first two simple with a 1/1 and 2/2 but as I spiraled into mad scientist mode all sense fell away.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-19145195247706644952012-10-12T10:23:03.214-04:002012-10-12T10:23:03.214-04:00There are a number of problems as discussed elsewh...There are a number of problems as discussed elsewhere on the thread. But I'm startled that nobody's mentioned one factor making the cards in the post needlessly complex: their power and toughness are different. Why wouldn't you just give them all P=T? A 2/3 with a +1/+1 counter and a 0/3 mutated is a lot more fiddly to calculate than a 2/2 with a +1/+1 counter and a 2/2 mutated. <br /><br />This seems like a perfect place to remove undue complication by keeping P and T lined up. In the same way that Wizards removed undue complication from Replicate by keeping the replicate cost always equal to the mana cost.<br /><br />(Of course, the mechanic is still too complicated for the other reasons mentioned on this thread, but I don't have much to add to those discussions :) )AlexChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674122775216494431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-82288758458829275292012-10-12T10:16:31.665-04:002012-10-12T10:16:31.665-04:00This is beyond parasitic. This is two new categori...This is beyond parasitic. This is two new categories of cards, each of which is parasitic off the other. You could end up with a limited pool of 8 "Experiment" cards and no "When mutated" cards, or vice versa. It'd be like the problems of populate+token-makers, but far worse because it can't key off all of Magic's token-making history and also because this version would be very confusing if the same card said both "T: Experiment" and "When ~ is exiled by an experiment" (because players with imperfect understanding would expect that to mean "T: Exile ~ and experiment" or some such).AlexChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674122775216494431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-74124374301217809202012-10-11T14:10:50.810-04:002012-10-11T14:10:50.810-04:00Hmm, when you send them to the bottom, you have no...Hmm, when you send them to the bottom, you have no reason but to choose either the most expensive (to optimize your effect) or the one with the exile-wonder ability. When you put them on top, you have to choose between being able to cast them or exile them. The latter is more interesting, but the former will feel bad less often.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-38735792672126690202012-10-11T14:02:46.295-04:002012-10-11T14:02:46.295-04:00I like putting them on the bottom better, that way...I like putting them on the bottom better, that way you don't get awkward choices like choosing no effect so that you don't have to draw a land. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of players upset when Auger of Bolas sends their good creatures to the bottom...Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-58587917793732571602012-10-11T11:06:22.176-04:002012-10-11T11:06:22.176-04:00Experimental Cure 1G
Sorcery
Look at the top three...Experimental Cure 1G<br />Sorcery<br />Look at the top three cards of your library, exile one and put the rest back on top in any order.<br />Gain X life where X is the CMC of the exiled card.<br /><br />Experimental Research 1UU<br />Sorcery<br />Look at the top three cards of your library, exile one and put the rest back on top in any order.<br />Draw two cards.<br /><br />Regression Testing U<br />Instant<br />Look at the top three cards of your library, exile one and put the rest back on top in any order.<br />You may return a creature with CMC X- to it's owner's hand, where X is the CMC of the exiled card.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-87337608315747533072012-10-11T11:03:14.618-04:002012-10-11T11:03:14.618-04:00Nice! We could do Experiment N, but I'm guessi...Nice! We could do Experiment N, but I'm guessing a static number will prove ideal (and 3 is a massively credible candidate).<br /><br />I don't know how to keep this so open-ended (short of restricting the CMC of the card you can exile—which seems fiddly, especially if we've already got another number in there).<br /><br />Maaaybe we can use experiment as a cost...<br /><br />Experimental Growth G<br />Instant<br />Look at the top three cards of your library, exile one and put the rest back on top in any order.<br />Target creature gets +X/+X until EOT where X is the CMC of the exiled card.<br /><br />Mutant Cloudray U<br />1/1 Fish<br />Flying<br />As long as ~ is exiled, creatures you control have flying.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-59925521380537897882012-10-11T10:52:56.993-04:002012-10-11T10:52:56.993-04:00I wish I could've left off the "exiled by...I wish I could've left off the "exiled by an experiment" rider and just used "exiled," but that seems pretty busted with spells that exile as a cost: Demonic Consultation, Spoils of the Vault, Chrome Mox, Crumbling Sanctuary, Gloom Surgeon, Leveler, Mirror of Fate, Paradigm Shift, etc. <br /><br />I guess that's only relevant to the Eternal formats where getting an arbitrary number of minor Emblems for free is still relatively fair?Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-45591360031133586182012-10-10T23:13:11.087-04:002012-10-10T23:13:11.087-04:00Using the top of the library does feel like experi...Using the top of the library does feel like experimenting and research. It could allow you to chose a card from the top cards of your library.<br />Experiment (When this enters the battlefield, look at the top 3 cards of your library, exile a creature card from those cards, and put the remaining cards on the bottom of your library in any order. This creature has all abilities of the exiled creature card.)<br />This is too long, and it allows you to cheat out an ability that's only balanced in the late-game, so it won't work, but something like it might be possible.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-27452833223080789792012-10-10T20:04:38.431-04:002012-10-10T20:04:38.431-04:00Just to be clear, the Simic mechanic I'm playi...Just to be clear, the Simic mechanic I'm playing with for my Fakecrash has very little in common with any of the mechanic proposed here.Wobbleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11494097707732649864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-21947947858816997532012-10-10T19:00:30.993-04:002012-10-10T19:00:30.993-04:00Playing the part of rules manager here, experiment...Playing the part of rules manager here, experiment more or less has to be done parasitically because letting any two cards grant abilities would lead to thinks like Lhurgoyf + Tarmogoyf that prevented the Mimeoplasm from gaining both sets of abilities.<br />That said, I see no reason to make it more parasitic than it needs to be, why not make the keyword: (As long as ~ is exiled, creatures you control gain its abilities) since that's the exciting part. The actual exiling can just be a rider on a bunch of cards, and this way it will work with other guilds' creatures. The balancing for big abilities could be making them cost mana a la Gust Skimmer or Furnace Celebration.<br /><br />On the varios Lurk evolutions, I think it plays very differently from Soulbond when drawn in multiples, but given the presence of 5 mechanics that may not be happening much here.Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-78054040119568890292012-10-10T17:35:40.473-04:002012-10-10T17:35:40.473-04:00Jules, it touches me that the 4-color set is compl...Jules, it touches me that the 4-color set is completely forgotten, and I appreciate that you went out of your way to repost what I shared on Twitter.<br /><br />I wanted to clarify: Yes, I made sure to exile it so that the creature could be placed under the creature gaining new abilities. I put in the option of returning that card to your hand after the creature leaves the battlefield due to the card disadvantage problem with Auras. It also perhaps might encourage to NOT use the ability and instead cast them as creatures.<br /><br />Using Lurk's "put onto the battlefield" clause for when the creature being Simic-d does solve this problem, though. Just swings the pendulum of advantage from disadvantage to GOOD advantage.<br /><br />Lastly, I agree with Wobbles' concern for the impression of feeling like Soulbond when there is a creature exiled another creature - looks like they're being paired.<br /><br />But I would argue that Mutate does the same thing, even if it's just for the turn. You'd have to have that reminder card there, especially when there's multiple mutations in one turn. <br /><br />Also, if you go ahead with Mutate as is, I recommend exiling the creature from your hand instead of discarding it so that players can do what they naturally do for remembering what a creature gained from Mutating.bradleyrosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05284973109981113059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-49042777722469887232012-10-10T17:12:30.015-04:002012-10-10T17:12:30.015-04:00I think all possible experiments would be balanced...I think all possible experiments would be balanced by rarity and not mana cost. Hopefully the fact that each card is playable on its own means actually drawing it is also nice, even if it's not what you might have preferred.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-81973434637301347422012-10-10T17:04:20.240-04:002012-10-10T17:04:20.240-04:00There's potential here. My first instinct is t...There's potential here. My first instinct is that it feels similar to Miracle in that you're disappointed to see cards that should be experiment targets show up in your opening hand. <br /><br />It also seems extremely hard to balance (if a card has CMC 8, should it have an awesome experiment effect that could be randomly uncovered on turn 2?) Come to think of it, that's another problem with miracles...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17647677781801914930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-4396537174866404922012-10-10T16:56:43.195-04:002012-10-10T16:56:43.195-04:00One play advantage experiment has over Slivers is ...One play advantage experiment has over Slivers is that your boosts are basically permanent since your opponent won't be messing with your exile zone. The same advantage is a design problem, because it limits interactivity. You sure as hell would never want a Mutant that grants hexproof.<br /><br />I'm still compelled to design further...<br /><br />Simic Research 2U<br />Sorcery<br />Experiment.<br />Draw a card.<br />Experiment.<br /><br />Mutant Wurm 3GG<br />4/4 Mutant Wurm<br />Trample<br />As long as ~ is exiled by an experiment, mutants you control have trample.<br /><br />Even though experimenting costs you no card advantage, it still has the problem that you're not getting to /cast/ the creatures you experiment on. Hmm...<br /><br />Simic Healing Pool<br />Land<br />T: Add 1 to your mana pool.<br />As long as ~ is exiled by an experiment, mutants you control have 1G: Regenerate this creature.<br /><br />Glands of the Baloth 2G<br />Aura<br />Enchanted creature gets +3/+3.<br />As long as ~ is exiled by an experiment, mutants you control get +1/+1.<br /><br />Adrenal Response U<br />Instant<br />Return target creature to its owner's hand.<br />As long as ~ is exiled by an experiment, mutant cards in your hand have flash.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-58043150529910773692012-10-10T16:46:27.553-04:002012-10-10T16:46:27.553-04:00Yeah, Soulbond took a chunk of possibility away fr...Yeah, Soulbond took a chunk of possibility away from the Simic.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-67448022698356742842012-10-10T16:45:40.433-04:002012-10-10T16:45:40.433-04:00I hate that this execution is a temporary effect a...I hate that this execution is a temporary effect and I agree that using your hand as the source isn't ideal. Using the graveyard feels wrong though, because it encroaches on Golgari's territory.<br /><br />We could use the top of the library, but that's pretty transient too. Maybe...<br /><br />Mutate (When ~ ETB, look at the top card of your library. You may exile it face-up. Creatures with mutate have the abilities of the last card exiled by a mutate ability.)<br /><br />It's like your experimenting. What if I gave all my test subjects these gils? Nah, that wasn't great, how about these wings? All your mutants are looking at the same exiled card, so that simplifies things a bit, and you don't have to do the math of adding P/Ts.<br /><br />One of the strengths of this version is also it's biggest problem. Your mutants gain the ability of ANY card exiled, which means they're open-ended instead of parasitic but it also means you could give them mana abilities of lands or abilities that were balanced for certain permanents like Mindslaver, Korlash, Magus of the Disk or Phyrexian Devourer.<br /><br />I doubt you could print an effect like that. Which means we're forced to limit it and make it parasitic:<br /><br />Simic Researcher 1U<br />1/1 Vedalken Wizard<br />T: Experiment (Look at the top card of your library. You may exile it face-up.)<br /><br />Mutant Cloudray U<br />1/1 Mutant Fish<br />Flying<br />As long as ~ is exiled by an experiment, mutants you control have flying.<br /><br />Mutant Cloudray U<br />1/1 Mutant Fish<br />When ~ ETB, experiment.<br />As long as ~ is exiled by an experiment, mutants you control have flying.<br /><br />There's potential, but I feel like it's a lot of work for Bad Slivers.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-13417919425693598312012-10-10T16:29:14.468-04:002012-10-10T16:29:14.468-04:00The problem I see with mechanics like this one is ...The problem I see with mechanics like this one is that it's coming on the heels of Soulbond. Granted, I could affix multiple creatures to a single creature, but for most purposes giving a creature +!/+1 and flying isn't that different than pairing it with a Wingcrafter.<br /><br />What's worse is that they even look the same. Two creatures hanging out on the battlefield together. Of course, with Soulbond that's exactly what they are. With affix, it's more visually confusing because you likely have a creature that's exiled sitting on the battlefield next to a creature that actually exists.Wobbleshttp://twitter.com/wobblesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-81941282274470119242012-10-10T15:41:30.620-04:002012-10-10T15:41:30.620-04:00I'm starting to think most readers read it tha...I'm starting to think most readers read it that way.<br />Just to clarify: My intention was that you were /adding/ all of these characteristics rather than replacing them. That failure of communication is on me.<br /><br />And as long I'm clarifying, I'm not defending this mechanic. I'm pointing out all the issues it has and enjoying the conversation about what else could be done.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-85063635846073568162012-10-10T15:38:26.206-04:002012-10-10T15:38:26.206-04:00If Mutate weren't a terrible idea for other re...If Mutate weren't a terrible idea for other reasons, I would plan to shift most sorcery/instant card slots to creatures for this guild.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-20333310853548338812012-10-10T15:01:32.381-04:002012-10-10T15:01:32.381-04:00I agree with everything (as seen above) except the...I agree with everything (as seen above) except the color argument. There's nothing random about this mutation; it's being induced quite intentionally and that requires both knowledge and planning.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-2950887470665162962012-10-10T12:57:31.137-04:002012-10-10T12:57:31.137-04:00I think that the Simic mechanic should give player...I think that the Simic mechanic should give players the satisfaction of building your own monster, and getting these abilities only one turn would not achieve that feel (although some cool combos could form).<br /><br />I think mixing two monsters somehow is the right feel for genetic experimenting, more so than using Auras. Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-64694232356871024482012-10-10T04:33:24.125-04:002012-10-10T04:33:24.125-04:00If we stick with Mutate in some form I'd defin...If we stick with Mutate in some form I'd definitely argue for stripping it down. I certainly don't think sticking Cytoshapes at common is likely to work out, but spelling out what abilities to grant should be simple enough. The question then is whether the hand is the best source, maybe fusing creatures on the battlefield will work better...Then again, maybe it just feels like they're eating each other, which isn't exactly Simic.<br /><br />Then again, I'm not convinced that the aura issue is as difficult to solve as you think it is. Testing for his 4-colors matter set Bradley Rose and I adapted Chah's lurk mechanic to read like this:<br /><br />Gustwing 3U<br />Creature-Horror (C)<br />Affix 1U (1U: Exile Gustwing from your hand affixed to target creature you control. When a creature Gustwing is affixed to dies, put Gustwing onto the battlefield.)<br />Gustwing and the creature it’s affixed to have flying.<br />2/2<br /><br />The bottom positioning of the relevant text allowed the card to be placed beneath the creature it affected with only the important part showing, clearly showing that it's not on the battlefield. This version may work better at sorcery speed, but in general I'm unconvinced it merits the extra text.<br />As for the version Bradley recently shared on Twitter:<br />({Cost}, exile this card from your hand: Add this card's abilities to target creature. When that creature leaves the battlefield, return this card to it's owner's hand.)<br />I'm concerned about returning to hand because of Rancor-like repetitive gameplay that's much more widespread.<br /><br />Regardless, there's an issue of of getting players to use a clear method for marking the 'auras'. I'm thinking something like the Evoke frames MaRo showed off here (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr299) might be best.Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.com