tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post4657677748624108996..comments2024-03-11T02:32:15.295-04:00Comments on Goblin Artisans: CCDD 042015-Blood WolfUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-55168059089024268192015-04-23T10:53:06.443-04:002015-04-23T10:53:06.443-04:00Ah, ok, I sort of see what you mean. But "at ...Ah, ok, I sort of see what you mean. But "at least one of them dealt enough damage to destroy it" sounds like it's referring to the _last_ damage dealt, which I think doesn't work in magic if the damage isn't dealt one source at a time (eg. if the damage is dealt by creatures and non-creatures simultaneously by one effect).<br /><br />It sounds like the choices, however you phrase them, are:<br /><br />* if this dies/is dealt lethal damage, and at least some of it comes from creatures<br />* if enough damage is dealt to this solely from creatures it would be lethal even without any other damage<br /><br />Those are at least unambiguous. But I'm not sure we have a phrase which unambiguously means either yet?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-9322024317041259032015-04-23T10:28:52.423-04:002015-04-23T10:28:52.423-04:00If two 1/1s block and kill a 2/2, [at least] one o...If two 1/1s block and kill a 2/2, [at least] one of them dealt enough damage to destroy it. We can clarify though:<br /><br />"Whenever one or more creatures deal enough damage to destroy ~."Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-88395105530249936742015-04-23T10:03:10.492-04:002015-04-23T10:03:10.492-04:00Yes, I was comparing to deathtouch too, but note t...Yes, I was comparing to deathtouch too, but note that that wording means, if it's blocked by two 1/1s you don't get a card, and if it's indestructible, you do even though it doesn't die...<br /><br />I think "dies after being dealt damage by a creature this turn" is probably the closest we're going to get, though I'd like to hear alternatives!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-91240368419890981032015-04-23T09:43:49.453-04:002015-04-23T09:43:49.453-04:00Deathtouch's reminder text is (Any amount of d...Deathtouch's reminder text is (Any amount of damage this deals to a creature is enough to destroy it.)<br /><br />"Whenever a creature deals enough damage to destroy ~."Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-33151594798284207232015-04-23T05:17:13.843-04:002015-04-23T05:17:13.843-04:00I considered variants on "lethal damage"...I considered variants on "lethal damage". I would like something like that to work! But it seems like magic has cards that try to say "when this is killed by something" but don't find a wording that works.<br /><br />What happens if it's dealt damage by another source first, and then by a creature? What happens if it's dealt some damage by a noncreature and some damage by a creature in the same effect?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-30456884727716415322015-04-22T23:04:53.347-04:002015-04-22T23:04:53.347-04:00The phrase "lethal damage" occurs on a s...The phrase "lethal damage" occurs on a single card from Visions. That isn't a bright start!Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-27037834143678245412015-04-22T13:20:49.455-04:002015-04-22T13:20:49.455-04:00"When a creature deal lethal damage to ~.&quo..."When a creature deal lethal damage to ~."Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-24645015464834378272015-04-22T13:20:12.738-04:002015-04-22T13:20:12.738-04:00"When ~ dies to lethal damage dealt by creatu..."When ~ dies to lethal damage dealt by creatures"Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-88000865281607616602015-04-22T11:57:58.013-04:002015-04-22T11:57:58.013-04:00Yeah, I would like to see the game designed that w...Yeah, I would like to see the game designed that way.<br /><br />For this card, I love the idea of "dies in combat" but agree with the problems. Would "when this is dealt combat damage" do? 95% of the time that's the same as "dies due to combat damage" but is unambiguous. You could say "if this dies and was dealt combat damage this turn" but that's clunkier.<br /><br />Or even "when this is dealt damage by a creature", including fight at the expense of also including pingers?<br /><br />OTOH, maybe "is dealt combat or fight damage" would work? That rules out similar abilities that don't use the keyword, but magic does that often.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-59063482433148376692015-04-21T17:59:38.104-04:002015-04-21T17:59:38.104-04:00Yes. In fact, I think green cares more about death...Yes. In fact, I think green cares more about death by creature damage than death in combat (because of fight.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17647677781801914930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-1445641739769143862015-04-21T14:06:26.432-04:002015-04-21T14:06:26.432-04:00Indeed.
At least we've got fight at all.Indeed.<br />At least we've got fight at all.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-5801541293575720012015-04-21T13:23:54.835-04:002015-04-21T13:23:54.835-04:00Ruleswise, I think that's not difficult to tra...Ruleswise, I think that's not difficult to translate. It seems to me like it clearly translates to "is destroyed by combat damage during the combat damage step (i.e. during the application of rule 510.2)". In practice, it's a little wobbly as everyone has pointed out.Circéushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09840777830724271371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-51546667406021025812015-04-21T11:01:58.812-04:002015-04-21T11:01:58.812-04:00Very true. If Magic were being redesigned from the...Very true. If Magic were being redesigned from the ground up, I think it'd definitely be worth trying to make the keyword action "fight" count as combat and respect keywords like first strike and even trample. But with fight having been added 20+ years after the game has been going, that's a bit of a lost cause at the moment.AlexChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674122775216494431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-83991313066272288002015-04-21T11:00:06.558-04:002015-04-21T11:00:06.558-04:00It is an interesting part of the fabric of each ga...It is an interesting part of the fabric of each game what notions are easy to express in that game and what notions are hard. This leads to a lot of what gives each game its character. Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-83272445689184737972015-04-21T10:35:58.304-04:002015-04-21T10:35:58.304-04:00"or fighting" makes sense, but isn't..."or fighting" makes <i>sense</i>, but isn't going to do what you want, because it'll be vanishingly rare for a creature die actually during the duration of a fight. Most creatures will die just after fighting, the next time SBAs occur. Even infect/wither won't change that; about the only card you'd affect would be Dralnu, Lich Lord. <br /><br />I... <i>think</i> you'd be able to say something "dies just after a fight", where "just after" is a proposed new rules term meaning "during rounds of state-based actions after X, before anyone gains priority". That'd risk including cases where it's your Veteran Armorer that got in the fight, though.AlexChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674122775216494431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-37760955489907888722015-04-21T10:07:35.988-04:002015-04-21T10:07:35.988-04:00I was proposing "dies in combat" as a mo...I was proposing "dies in combat" as a more thematic phrase than "dies during combat." If your creature is sitting combat out (for whatever reason), dying at that time shouldn't mean anything. "Dies while attacking or blocking" appears to be the Magic-ese needed to unambiguously describe. It's not quite as poetic, but it's still pretty short.<br /><br />Can we add "or fighting?" Does that work? That doesn't read nearly as well, but it is more intuitive.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-51431206870833508972015-04-21T10:03:35.045-04:002015-04-21T10:03:35.045-04:00So you don't disagree that this mechanic fits ...So you don't disagree that this mechanic fits green, only that the name shouldn't be Honorable Death?Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-2871654345642402602015-04-21T05:51:19.417-04:002015-04-21T05:51:19.417-04:00"Dies in combat" I think is a fine alter..."Dies in combat" I think is a fine alternative phrasing of "dies during combat". The problem with that is that <a href="http://www.magicmultiverse.net/cards/10432" rel="nofollow">fighting isn't combat damage</a>. How many newer players would say "The card says they fight! Surely that means it dies during combat?"<br /><br />"Dies due to combat damage" I suspect is rather more problematic. The game state doesn't track "what caused" something to die - that's not a concept that even makes sense. Wobbles's proposal of "the last damage the creature received before it died was combat damage" still leaves open that it could have been hit with Scar, Bane of the Living, and About Face before finally its toughness drops below its marked damage. I assume you'd also want to prevent against the creature receiving combat damage but then getting hit by Doom Blade, Ashling the Extinguisher, or perhaps Unsummon while Horobi, Death's Wail is on the table? You end up wanting to make the Comp Rules say "the last <b>thing</b> that happened to the creature", but even that doesn't help if the opponent casts a second main phase Curse of Death's Hold or bounces your Veteran Armorer...<br /><br />No, I think "dies due to combat damage" is definitely unfeasible. "Dies during combat" has precedent in Cathedral Membrane (and is a great phrase that should get used more). "Dies in combat" is probably a viable alternative, though "during" may be that fraction clearer and so worth sticking to.AlexChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05674122775216494431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-60859000768191786272015-04-21T01:29:06.406-04:002015-04-21T01:29:06.406-04:00To green, the hunter's intelligence is just he...To green, the hunter's intelligence is just her natural advantage. Humans are creatures, and the hunter is just using her brain, which is her natural advantage over the lion. Of course she couldn't be expected to fight it with her bare hands; that's not her advantage. <br /><br />What green can't abide is killing for reasons other than survival. Two humans are at similar spots on the food chain; if they can't put aside their differences, they're going to wind up as lhurgoyf food.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17647677781801914930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-22898226683012588992015-04-20T23:46:35.049-04:002015-04-20T23:46:35.049-04:00Maybe it's easier to look at honor in Green by...Maybe it's easier to look at honor in Green by looking at "dishonorable" combat. Things like being backstabbled, using fire/lightning, a sniper shot, For green, unless your battling with your raw strength, Lion kills antelope, fine. Hunter with a gun kills a lion? that's pretty black. Wobbleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11494097707732649864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-82607566289416671892015-04-20T23:38:09.257-04:002015-04-20T23:38:09.257-04:00I really think that any variant of this ability th...I really think that any variant of this ability that doesn't close the "killed by spells" loophole is just terrible. Dies in Combat should mean that it ran into another creature and died fighting. Wobbleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11494097707732649864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-48176826150112876702015-04-20T23:04:44.736-04:002015-04-20T23:04:44.736-04:00Right, but that's not honor, that's about ...Right, but that's not honor, that's about nature. Honor is an ideal. To green, the world is how it is. The lion kills the antelope, the hunter kills the lion, the lhurgoyf kills the hunter: there's no honor, there's just survival.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17647677781801914930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-36377173285457395572015-04-20T21:21:34.361-04:002015-04-20T21:21:34.361-04:00"Dies in combat" isn't about the gra..."Dies in combat" isn't about the graveyard, it's about fighting. Being a predator, or the prey, as is the way of things.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-33218892064883850762015-04-20T20:49:25.936-04:002015-04-20T20:49:25.936-04:00To clarify: "Dies during combat" would m...To clarify: "Dies during combat" would mean the same thing it does on Cathedral Citadel. That's just the way timing is written in Magic.<br /><br />On dies due to combat damage:<br />I think this would work, too. To clarify, it would just mean that if last damage the creature received before it died was combat damage, the ability would trigger. The situation that R Stech brings up is a perfect example. Bolt it before damage is dealt, it triggers. FInish it off with a bolt? Doesn't trigger. No sweat.<br />Wobbleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11494097707732649864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-19432664960612875502015-04-20T20:33:30.577-04:002015-04-20T20:33:30.577-04:00"dies while attacking or blocking" may m..."dies while attacking or blocking" may more accurately capture my vision of Jay's vision.Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.com