tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post4908206429960935584..comments2024-03-11T02:32:15.295-04:00Comments on Goblin Artisans: Lessons from Tesla Playtest #1Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-23503595330217893182013-08-16T20:57:20.658-04:002013-08-16T20:57:20.658-04:00Then we should cut DFCs from Innistrad, and Levele...Then we should cut DFCs from Innistrad, and Levelers from Rise of the Eldrazi.<br /><br />It's one thing to read a ton of wordy text explaining to you that something has changed into something else, and another thing to actually see it change. Flip cards were a failure; DFCs were not. The Art can tip the balance between being worth it or not.<br /><br />That said, DFCs and Levelers contributed to the overall gameplay of the set, while the Mechas don't do that unless we engineer an environment where everyone is playing Mechas, and it won't contribute as much to inter-block strategies. It may not be the same situation as DFCs.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-74838061985381100562013-08-16T19:18:15.388-04:002013-08-16T19:18:15.388-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-79487729678711724392013-08-16T18:46:06.354-04:002013-08-16T18:46:06.354-04:00I think that if one strategy has a lot of linear s...I think that if one strategy has a lot of linear synergy, the counterpoint has to have a lot of linear synergy as well. Modern Masters is balanced like that.<br /><br />It's also possible to go another way and not have any counterpoint strategy. You can make it so that you can either pick goodstuff that's good in a vacuum, or you can pick Mechas that are good if you have the synergy. Zendikar was like that with the Allies. It felt like every Ally had a non-linear counterpart in the same color (often in the same cost) that was better than it in a vacuum.<br /><br />But even with the first route, the linearity doesn't have to make it one-dimensional to draft. In the test, I didn't feel like I had to keep taking Mechas. I picked up some Blight Widows for surviving into the late game rather than take random Mecha parts. I felt that it was possible to balance it in such a way that there's room to mix and match.<br /><br />We can get players to mix Infect and normal damage while still focusing on either Poison or non-Poison damage as the main victory condition. We can do that by putting the Infect on useful creatures like Gravedigger (making Corpse Cur work with any creature, not just Infect creatures) or Giant Spider, <br /><br />When Infect and normal damage sources get played together, it produces neat games, because the game can go back and forth along multiple axes.<br /><br />In that test game we had after the main test was over, we had a game where my Mecha dealt huge chunks of damage, then you destroyed it with removal, then my infect creatures started dealing damage. Then you got rid of the infect creatures, but I started dealing normal damage again.<br /><br />So the choices are:<br />Goodstuff vs. Mechas<br />Mecha emphasis decks (with useful Infect thrown in) vs. Infect emphasis decks (with strong-frontside Mecha thrown in)<br />A non-linear faction vs. Mechas (not sure how I can make this work)Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-34449003030390179092013-08-16T18:18:00.687-04:002013-08-16T18:18:00.687-04:00We do want the -1/-1 counters to be an alternate s...We do want the -1/-1 counters to be an alternate strategy to pursue, so the linear-ness of Infect is actually something that we want. However, it's so hard to balance the racing speed of Infect and Wither might be easier to handle. <br /><br />I do think we can give Infect decks a kind of late-game card advantage like Innistrad's Zombies and make it a style that wears opponents out with an unending horde, while being slow in the beginning. But it's good to have Wither to fall back on.<br /><br />So far, the pre-shrinking of Mechas hasn't felt so much like a problem in itself. For the most part, the problem has been that when the Heads block, they die anyways. When the Bodies hit play, they transform because you have a Head by that time.<br /><br />Someone suggested that when Mechas join, they refresh themselves by flickering. Maybe we should try that if pre-shrinking starts to feel like a problem.<br /><br />By the way, I'm not trying to "convey a feeling" of Build, Destroy, and Rebuild. I want it to <i>play</i> that way for interactivity, back-and-forth play, and choice-making. If you build a Mecha, and you just ride it to victory, it isn't interactive. If your opponent interacts by destroying your Parts or your assembled Mechas, that isn't satisfying. You have to be able to actually assemble a Mecha and fight with it in most games, but they shouldn't automatically give you victory; they should die (preferably in combat). But the Mecha dying shouldn't be the end of the fun. It shouldn't be, "oh no, I'll never get to assemble another Mecha this game. Now I have to draw some flyers or Lava Axe to win." That naturally leads to a build, destroy, and rebuild type of game play. I'm not particularly trying to convey it as a kind thematic flavor of Mecha battle or introduce effects for the sake of conveying that flavor.<br /><br />That said, I felt that the set could use a sacrifice effect like Altar's Reap for creatures that have shrunken with Infect. However, if it turns out the Mechas really need a disbanding mechanism to not feel bad, we should have it on the back side of Mechas (probably as a mirror to the front side's ability, to not tax people's memory) rather than relying on outside cards to provide that utility, because they would be unreliable.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-87590643562165207092013-08-16T17:33:26.181-04:002013-08-16T17:33:26.181-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-8490462196947705002013-08-16T10:33:45.685-04:002013-08-16T10:33:45.685-04:00If a mechanic shouldn't exist, we should simpl...If a mechanic shouldn't exist, we should simply cut it, no matter how cool the art is.HavelockVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698268009797139251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-2630496028050790622013-08-15T21:55:54.769-04:002013-08-15T21:55:54.769-04:00That is definitely a possibility.
It could be a s...That is definitely a possibility. <br />It could be a sideways draft strategy that supports only one drafter, like a Storm deck or a Dampen Thought deck, rather than a mainstream playstyle of this set.<br /><br />I've been thinking that if this is a postapocalyptic world where you're scavenging and salvaging old technology, there could be a whole theme about dumping cards from your library into your graveyard and then picking something up from it. Mechas could be just one of the substrategies that make use of that.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-58004657756681556522013-08-15T21:49:00.259-04:002013-08-15T21:49:00.259-04:00You're right that this set suffers from the pr...You're right that this set suffers from the problem of being similar to Mirrodin.<br /><br />I've been thinking that once we've hammered out the game play logistics of Mechas, and roughly figured out the right style for them that makes them the most fun, we have some major work to do to figure out what this set is actually about.<br /><br />One possibility is to make this a prequel to the Mirrodin series. It could be about the Thran Empire. The empire was technologically advanced, and it's also where the Phyrexians were born. They successfully fought off the Phyrexians. Urza studied the Thran for clues on how to beat the Phyrexians, and Urza also built those mech-suits for the Phyrexian incursion, so maybe the Thran had mechas too.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-74498557342492509382013-08-15T21:06:42.189-04:002013-08-15T21:06:42.189-04:00This mechanic hogs all the resources of the set, b...This mechanic hogs all the resources of the set, but is very insular and doesn't add depth to the rest of the set. Mechanically, it shouldn't exist.<br /><br />The only reason it could be justified (if at all) is because of the joining art, which can get people excited like nothing else. I think it could be done in a way that's worth it.<br /><br />But Pilots & Vehicles aren't going to benefit much from joining art. If we're going to have Vehicles, it should be done in a more open-ended way like Licids or Living Weapon. They would have to play differently enough from Equipment, but maybe we can find something.<br /><br />If a set features Vehicles (including Mecha-style vehicles), I could see there being some Pilot cards that grant bonuses to Vehicles, but it should never be mandatory. We don't want a mechanic where you need to draw a Vehicle card and a Pilot card and put them together. That has all the problems of using Mechas as a set mechanic without any of the payoff of joining art.Chahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574587448667619081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-70529054225816035412013-08-15T20:19:21.364-04:002013-08-15T20:19:21.364-04:00I agree on the Wither front. Infect brings Tesla t...I agree on the Wither front. Infect brings Tesla too close to Scars (in my opinion), but more importantly it makes the limited format linear to the point where most of the players are just picking whatever mechs/infectors are in their colors and there's little room to mix and match.<br /><br />That all said, while the shrinking mechs gameplay is good, it's not the only route. We could have a mechanic like this:<br /><br />Disabler (This creature deals combat damage to creatures in the form of disabling counters. If a creature with a disabling counter on it would untap, remove a disabling counter from it instead.)Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-5719924353317343042013-08-15T12:13:00.738-04:002013-08-15T12:13:00.738-04:00Well done. Thanks for all the detail.
Another opt...Well done. Thanks for all the detail.<br /><br />Another option for opposing creature mechanic: I’d suggest wither rather than infect. It still has the type of interaction you want against Mechs without overly speeding up the environment. Maro has already said that the creation of Infect didn’t mean Wither was now obsolete. Using wither again, would just depend on what Design needs. We might need it here.<br /><br />There is one big flaw currently in both infect and wither. When a Head or Body combines, it brings its -1/-1 counters with it and the new Mech is weakened right off the bat. -1/-1 counters are always going to create this feel bad. You’ve jumped through hoops and traded two creatures for one weakened creature. The last thing we want is players thinking “why bother” about the set’s signature mechanic. Maybe Aura, Equipment and counters SHOULDN’T remain after combination.<br /><br />Instead of an un-combining ability, just include “Sacrifice an Artifact” activation costs in the Mech aligned colors. If you use them during your turn, you can salvage the part you want to keep for re-combination, and get a cool effect. This type of activation cost also helps convey the feeling you want in the Mech decks (i.e. Build, destroy and rebuild).Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-72905534699586585312013-08-15T11:34:59.665-04:002013-08-15T11:34:59.665-04:00Separate from all that though, what I mean to say ...Separate from all that though, what I mean to say is, could we give the players who want to draft Mechas the opportunity to do so without making it such a heavy part of the set?<br /><br />Would the more elegant design involve different artifacts in general that combine together, some subset of which are robot-parts?<br /><br />What if we had pieces similar to the Kaldra or "of Empires" sets, but with all of them at common? You could even have "arms" "legs" and a "head" for your robot, with incremental bonuses as you construct it on the battlefield. This gives the "build-a-mech" gameplay experience on a regular basis in Limited using a small number of cards, and when you build it feels like an accomplishment itself.<br /><br />I think there are ways to do this, that either combine cards together, use DFCs, or both, that will have a lighter-weight impact on the set. I imagine that as interesting as all of the different head-body combinations are, it's too parasitic, and alternatives will be more fun overall.Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-77878146265139832152013-08-15T11:32:51.728-04:002013-08-15T11:32:51.728-04:00You hit on something that I've been thinking a...You hit on something that I've been thinking about a lot recently - whether the Mechas in this set are the Mirrans, or the Eldrazi. <br /><br />The gameplay of Mechas being built, damaged, and rebuilt with different parts throughout the game is interesting for sure, and is one way of building a set. It probably requires the level of commitment in packs that you've been talking about. But on the other side, there's definitely a draw to "building a towering robot", and that's at least what I would expect as a player from this sort of set.<br /><br />My guess is that we could make either version work, and it comes down to whoever is leading the design for which avenue we pursue.<br /><br />I can see how Infect <i>would</i> be a good natural counter to the Mechas sizes, and helps set a distinct non-mecha path with a clear reward. My worry with that is... that it's been done before? I mean, Infect hasn't been completely cleaned out of design space; but it's tied neatly up with the Phyrexians, and something I at least would like to see is Tesla as something other than Mirrodin III. This is why I'm curious about whether the robots are part of the threat (which makes for interesting man vs. mecha, mecha vs. nature, or mecha vs. magic) or robots as part of the resistance (presumably inevitably something <i>like</i> the Mirrans even if they're on a different plane).<br /><br />Big, colorless mecha (with certain colors better tuned to support) against a variety of colored resisters does sound very similar to Eldrazi, but I believe the way of putting the Mecha into play or operating them would be sufficiently different from the ROE experience.<br /><br />Mostly, I think combining robot-parts together is really interesting, but not 40-cards-worth interesting.Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-43089117259428125642013-08-15T10:53:53.483-04:002013-08-15T10:53:53.483-04:00I think colorless bodies + colored heads is defini...I think colorless bodies + colored heads is definitely worth trying. Someone (I forget who) thought we could flavor the heads as pilots, which I like.HavelockVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12698268009797139251noreply@blogger.com