tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post950307970410877838..comments2024-03-11T02:32:15.295-04:00Comments on Goblin Artisans: Tesla Horizons: Missing PieceUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-45850605617618107832015-04-09T14:44:04.465-04:002015-04-09T14:44:04.465-04:00I like the idea a once-per-game revolution. Like m...I like the idea a once-per-game revolution. Like monstrosity for players. In particular, I like the idea that it comes with a high cost/risk as well as big benefits.<br /><br />Industrial Revolution {5}{U}<br />Enchantment rare<br />All your creatures are artifact creatures and get +2/+2.<br />Whenever you draw a card, lose 1 life and put a 2/2 colorless Drone artifact creature token OTB.<br />At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-91306966611925316952015-04-09T14:34:33.174-04:002015-04-09T14:34:33.174-04:00Industrial Revolution seems neat. Some basic desig...Industrial Revolution seems neat. Some basic designer instinct is telling me it's a trap, but I can't put it into words, so I'd rather try it and find out.<br /><br />Note that the numeric symbols in a mana cost are 'generic mana costs' and are different from 'colorless mana.' Which begs the question, if we say "Your progress is the greatest generic mana symbol among mana costs of permanents you control" how many players will understand what that means? Would be cool if the answer were 95%, but I'm skeptical.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-31550431118078522852015-04-09T13:16:55.080-04:002015-04-09T13:16:55.080-04:00I think that you can build colors that care about ...I think that you can build colors that care about this in different ways. Like, we could have a Legendary DFC where once you've flipped it, it has "At the beginning of your combat step, transform all permaments with industrial Revolution you control" It would be a staple of most of the industrial Revolution decks using that color. I also think there could be red cards that reward you for flipping for Industrial Revolution over and over as you play more permanents.Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-28059976033129416652015-04-09T12:27:55.798-04:002015-04-09T12:27:55.798-04:00Re: Industrial Revolutions not happening all the t...Re: Industrial Revolutions not happening all the time, I think it is worth considering an "only once per game" clause. <br /><br />Some transition that moves you into the new age permanently, so that cards can care about your golden age or whatever.Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-54951444664906381682015-04-09T12:21:05.482-04:002015-04-09T12:21:05.482-04:00Yeah, ever since Tommy noted Revolution fits bette...Yeah, ever since Tommy noted Revolution fits better for Access the Machine, I too have been thinking about it in terms of "Industrial Revolution". I will note, however, that we don't want to make it seem like revolutions happen all the time. :P<br /><br />I agree that Progress looking only at colorless mana is a smart idea, and I super dig that approach. We can use it much like Devotion was used - to set the scale of effects, as a threshold, and so on. And it encourages a completely different kind of deck than Devotion - in fact, almost the OPPOSITE kind of deck - so that's a nice bonus.<br /><br />A nice thing about this version of Progress - one that defaults to a threshold rather than a scaling value - is that it encourages players to 'look ahead' more. We want players to be yearning for the future, to be striving for something greater, and giving them lofty goals like "Progress 4 or more" or even "Progress 5 or more" really help with that. <br /><br />Industrial Revolution's 10 permanents is a smart idea, too. I like how it works with any kind of permanent, but I do think tapping enchantments/planeswalkers for it is kinda weird... <br /><br />Still Ipaulsen, it's a great idea. I love it, and I personally am rooting for it as a contender for the current {7} version!<br /><br />Also, on another note, I agree the mechanical theme is definitely something along the lines of "artifacts and lots of mana". We can approach lots of mana from many perspectives... Breakthrough encourages casting big things or lots of small things; Progress encourages big permanents; Build encourages big spells; and so on. We got lots of potential mechanics that care about 'big', it just depends on what kind of 'big' we're looking for. And that's where focusing on the experience and setting helps in narrowing it down. In my opinion, we want to emphasize 'visions and planning', so that means having the 'big' mechanic be a lofty goal, and triggered rarely.Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00440653491352410437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-22577433404483849502015-04-09T11:03:34.230-04:002015-04-09T11:03:34.230-04:00I like Industrial Revolution as a concept for this...I like Industrial Revolution as a concept for this mechanic more than Access the Machine. Nice flavor. Since it's just a common mana rock, I think the other side of Outdated Mana Stone could be something slightly better than Pristine Tailsman and Darksteel Ingot.<br /><br />Mana Refractor<br />Artifact<br />Indestructible<br />T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. You gain 1 life.<br /><br />Progress (we really need a different name just to talk about it.) being tied to the colorless mana symbol on permanents is a cool way to sidestep the CMC problem and is incredibly easy to Grok. We can argue what the colorless mana symbol really represents later, but I like that, as with devotion, it lets players evaulate cards in an entirely new way. And I like that it incorporates artifacts and colored spells equally well. <br /><br />Having said all that, I don't know if we want to use "Largest number of colorless mana in the cost of a permanent you control" as a threshold mechanic, or something different. Devotion was versy successful using that value to set the scale of effects. We may want to just do that.Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-39342961134077869732015-04-09T09:54:50.922-04:002015-04-09T09:54:50.922-04:00I hate to say the mechanical theme is "artifa...I hate to say the mechanical theme is "artifacts", but inasmuch as Scars' mechanical theme was "artifacts and poison", Tesla's is probably "artifacts and ____", with the ____ in consideration. This <i>is</i> another helpful way of looking at what we're looking for, though.Pasteurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058331124653341978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-52940931605617951062015-04-09T04:03:15.585-04:002015-04-09T04:03:15.585-04:00I haven't been super-involved in the Tesla dis...I haven't been super-involved in the Tesla discussion, but here are some random thoughts that I hope might be helpful.<br /><br />A lot of modern Magic blocks have a mechanical theme and a setting that are distinct from each other. Innistrad had a graveyard theme and a horror setting. Ravnica had a two-color theme and a city setting. Theros had an enchantment theme and a Greek-mythology setting. Tarkir had wedge-color and dragon themes and a time-travel setting. The difference is that the setting is mostly based on creative considerations, while the theme is a definite in-game concept.<br /><br />It's clear that Tesla has a steampunk setting, and we've come up with a lot of cool ideas to enhance that (the endless varieties of Mechas and vehicles, plus stuff like Cogs etc.). But what is the mechanical theme? My impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that we believe the theme is 'progress'. <br /><br />But 'progress' doesn't mean anything in terms of mechanics. The closest we've come is the cluster of ideas around spending mana / mana cost. I think this is a good start, but I also get the sense that artifacts are being considered as a mechanical theme, and that's drawing attention away from other aspects of the set.<br /><br />As part of moving into design proper, I would suggest that we formally decide what the mechanical theme is. My preference would be for a "spend a lot of mana at once" theme that we could take in a similar direction to the "battleship Magic" theme of Rise of the Eldrazi. Making the artifacts part of the steampunk setting rather than the main mechanical focus might help to distinguish Tesla from the Mirrodin blocks.<br /><br />That being said, I came up with a couple of ways that we could tune the 'progress' mechanics to be particularly artifact-friendly. We are so inundated with mechanics that I don't want these to be considered as new ones. They're variations on existing mechanics that hopefully will spark some discussion. Here they are:<br /><br />Outdated Mana Stone 3<br />Artifact (Common)<br />T: Add 1 to your mana pool.<br />Industrial Revolution (Tap 10 untapped permanents you control: Transform all permanents with Industrial Revolution you control.)<br />[something better on the other side, not sure what]<br /><br />Progressive Dude W<br />Creature- Human Soldier (Common)<br />1/1<br />CARDNAME gets +2/+2 if your progress is 4 or greater. (Your progress is the largest number of colorless mana in the cost of a permanent you control.)lpaulsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07772860908442278112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-61911622442662455012015-04-08T21:57:10.356-04:002015-04-08T21:57:10.356-04:00I was considering something like common-level Gavo...I was considering something like common-level Gavony Townships. Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-65322367938240555742015-04-08T21:27:05.397-04:002015-04-08T21:27:05.397-04:00Psst, nonbasic lands...
Simple Workshop (COM)
Lan...Psst, nonbasic lands...<br /><br />Simple Workshop (COM)<br />Land<br />T: Add 1 to your mana pool.<br /><br />Trade Hub (COM)<br />Land<br />T: Add 1 to your mana pool.<br />Tap two untapped artifacts and/or nonbasic lands you control: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.<br /><br />Clock Tower (UNC)<br />Land<br />T: Add 1 to your mana pool.<br />Tap four untapped artifacts and/or nonbasic lands you control: Untap target artifact.<br /><br />Surplus Scrapyard (UNC)<br />Land<br />T: Add 1 to your mana pool.<br />Tap three untapped artifacts and/or nonbasic lands you control: Regenerate target artifact creature..Nich Graysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08686832423418814443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-83142580642578544532015-04-08T20:53:40.998-04:002015-04-08T20:53:40.998-04:00Hm, I hadn't even thought of just making the f...Hm, I hadn't even thought of just making the format one that encourages more lands and gives you ways to get around mana flood, metaghost. Smart idea.<br /><br />I don't think Tinder Farms are a good idea, for the reason Tommy noted, and I'm hesitant about cycling on lands for the same reason, though hopefully that causes problems less often.<br /><br />Are there any other ways we can encourage an 18-19 land format, with a more exciting/less troublesome mechanic than cycling on lands or lands that sacrifice for effects?Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00440653491352410437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-88345828691404247142015-04-08T20:41:19.388-04:002015-04-08T20:41:19.388-04:00I have to say I'm not eager to give new player...I have to say I'm not eager to give new players Tinder Farms. What if they accidentally use them?Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-16989324586714587642015-04-08T19:56:53.045-04:002015-04-08T19:56:53.045-04:00Is the set presumed to necessitate significant col...Is the set presumed to necessitate significant color-fixing? Or is it more about ensuring players feel confident they can hit their land-drops and successfully cast their progressive spells?<br /><br />Because if it's the second, I would advise against trying to reinvent the wheel here and rely more on concepts like cycling lands and Tinder Farms that let players feel comfortable running 18-19 lands.metaghosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18301191638894756414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-5264904746452838942015-04-08T19:24:05.376-04:002015-04-08T19:24:05.376-04:00Tommy: Yeah, those kinds of mechanics typically en...Tommy: Yeah, those kinds of mechanics typically enable Charbelcher-like decks. I do like the idea of your 'selective cantrip', though - seems worthy of exploration at the least.<br /><br />I don't think it puts a spotlight on land or anything, but I do feel it would distract from any possible themes or flavor we make that say "screw the land, go for technology!", you know?<br /><br />Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00440653491352410437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-19413180175430391922015-04-08T19:22:23.599-04:002015-04-08T19:22:23.599-04:00metaghost: We're trying to identify an entire ...metaghost: We're trying to identify an entire mechanic to serve to smooth out limited, metaghost, not just a cycle of cards.<br /><br />Though, technically, Ravnica's "smoothing mechanic" was just a crapton of fixing at all rarities, so...Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00440653491352410437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-37928608765342977842015-04-08T19:21:43.248-04:002015-04-08T19:21:43.248-04:00I'm not sure I agree that land-cycling puts an...I'm not sure I agree that land-cycling puts an emphasis on land. It could, and would be a neat mechanic to put in a Zendikar-esque environment, but for the most part I find it just sort of melts into the environment. I certainly never felt like Alara was about lands. If anything, it makes me think less about lands because I don't have to worry about playing my spells.<br /><br />That said, I definitely agree this puts an awkward tension in a set that wants to care about expensive spells. It does also involve an unfortunately amount of shuffling.<br /><br />I've had some success with a mechanic like "name land or non-land, and reveal cards from the top of your deck until you hit a card of the chosen type and put it in your hand" for smoothing, but I worry that in Magic it would encourage really degenerate decks where it played like a tutor.Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-90910877265171604972015-04-08T19:09:50.838-04:002015-04-08T19:09:50.838-04:00Y'all should investigate a thematic variation ...Y'all should investigate a thematic variation of the Tinder Farm lands from Invasion (which I think had a precursor in some other block).metaghosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18301191638894756414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-31902107375239458312015-04-08T17:01:15.233-04:002015-04-08T17:01:15.233-04:00I sorta agree, Tommy. There are two problems there...I sorta agree, Tommy. There are two problems there:<br /><br />1.) Landcycling puts a focus on lands. That feels weird for a set about technology, which typically undervalues lands and nature.<br /><br />2.) What do we put landcycling on? Putting it on small spells feels weird, as those are the most cast-able. But putting it on large spells encourages ditching the spell, which we want to avoid.Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00440653491352410437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-47059169194095918862015-04-08T16:53:18.101-04:002015-04-08T16:53:18.101-04:00If we want to cast expensive stuff (which I think ...If we want to cast expensive stuff (which I think most visions of progress do), and especially if we want to do anything with the graveyard (which again has seemed a common theme), I think that land cycling is an excellent choice for a returning smoothing mechanic. Tommy Occhipintihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495646355536064735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-91623076213465366152015-04-08T16:45:23.193-04:002015-04-08T16:45:23.193-04:00Agreed. At the end of the day it's human natur...Agreed. At the end of the day it's human nature to overvalue our own designs, but once we're aware of that the best we can do is try to honestly evaluate what we think is best and fight for it. If you have a strong opinion, we all want to hear the arguments, regardless of who came up with the idea.Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784920130399590671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-41475193346764045252015-04-08T16:33:26.351-04:002015-04-08T16:33:26.351-04:00Thanks. The compliments mean a lot coming from you...Thanks. The compliments mean a lot coming from you two. (:Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00440653491352410437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-72562840648903264282015-04-08T16:32:17.006-04:002015-04-08T16:32:17.006-04:00Quick note: I prefer Component to Underly because ...Quick note: I prefer Component to Underly because Underly makes you look to the past, while Component gives you a spell to look forward to casting. That's an important psychological difference!Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00440653491352410437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-71243360402221739262015-04-08T16:29:59.880-04:002015-04-08T16:29:59.880-04:00Oh, right! You made Revolution! I completely forgo...Oh, right! You made Revolution! I completely forgot that! :P<br /><br />Dude, don't fear putting forward your own mechanic. It's an awesome mechanic! Be proud of your work, and if you think it's right for the job, advocate it! (:<br /><br />And I do agree - I think combining DFCs with Access the Machine will serve many purposes. To name a few:<br /><br />1.) It will give DFCs a mechanic, allowing them to be both flavorful hole-fillers AND a flagship for a mechanic.<br /><br />2.) It will give Access the Machine some more developable cards, and allow us to make them more exciting.<br /><br />3.) Having it be a 'one-time thing' makes it feel more like an "end-game achievement" rather than a "continual achievement", an important goal in my opinion.<br /><br />4.) It's really unique and cool! Being unique and interesting is a big thing!Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00440653491352410437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-60917278284096738172015-04-08T16:26:46.489-04:002015-04-08T16:26:46.489-04:00Agreed. And I think our smoothing mechanic totally...Agreed. And I think our smoothing mechanic totally needs to be focused on the 'difficult end-games' that we're using for achievement.<br /><br />I identified a few possible smoothers in the last post ("What's it Gonna Cost?") but the best one so far, in my opinion, is "Charge":<br /><br />Put an artifact token named Battery onto the battlefield. It has "{T}, Sacrifice Battery: Untap target artifact or land." (With the debated "Only during your turn" clause possibly being included...)<br /><br />This is great because it can serve as mana-fixing, mana-ramp, and gives us multiple forms of artifact interaction, all at once! That's awesome!<br /><br />It's got some complexity difficulties, but no more so than Eldrazi Spawn, I think. "Charge", to me, seems like it has a lot of potential.<br /><br />Component and Underly, both suggested by Jules, were also fantastic smoothers:<br /><br />Component <i>(You may permanently reveal a card in your hand that costs more than ~. That card costs {1} less to cast.)</i><br /><br />Underly <i>(You may exile ~ from your graveyard to pay for {1} when casting a spell that costs more than this.)</i><br /><br />Now, these don't fix mana, nor do they assemble the right cards. But they do help you cast big things, and if this set is about artifacts and big spells, that's going to be important!<br /><br />-<br /><br />We can also look to past Magic sets for inspiration.<br /><br />Color-fixing: Morph for Khans of Tarkir. Landcycling for Shards of Alara. <br /><br />Card-assembling: Cycling for many sets. Scry for Theros.<br /><br />Curve-correcting: Kicker and its variants. Morph. Delve. Convoke. Eldrazi Spawn. Cycling. Suspend.<br /><br />The question is, what does our set look like it needs?<br /><br />If we're operating on the assumption that the set is going to care about "big spells", we see three of these things are going to be very helpful: card-assembling and curve-correcting.<br /><br />Card-assembling will be useful when we need a specific subset of cards - big cards - to make some cards work. Scry was used in Theros because the set really wanted you to have targeting spells, for example. <br /><br />Curve-correcting are cards or mechanics that give big stuff early-game utility, or get big-stuff out earlier. <br /><br />So, what are some new ways to try these approaches, and to find similar solutions that feel more fitting to Tesla than Scry, Cycling, or Eldrazi Spawn?<br /><br />And remember, we don't want to be <i>ditching</i> our big spells and/or artifacts - we want to be <i>supporting</i> them! So, for example, putting Cycling on all the big spells will make them feel less important in the set. We had this problem with one of Jay's cycling mechanics last post, since it encouraged ditching big spells.Inanimatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00440653491352410437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5479847193762153273.post-25015774738118633202015-04-08T16:00:04.380-04:002015-04-08T16:00:04.380-04:00We need a smoothing mechanic. Dig might well no lo...We need a smoothing mechanic. Dig might well no longer be relevant to the set depending on which collection of mechanics we run with, but every set needs something to help make each game feel like Magic.Jay Treathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428861685923241850noreply@blogger.com