It's been a while since I suggested looking for a new planeswalker to potentially replace Elspeth, Knight-Errant in M13. While we didn't find a complete solution last time, I wanted to highlight some of the more applicable ideas to see if one more pass doesn't do the trick. The biggest problem we had was sticking to ideas appropriate to the core set. White. Core. Planeswalker. These are the unyielding requirements for this design hole.
GeorgeGone suggested a 'walker based on Oblivion Ring. Here it is, slightly tweaked:
Dinara, Ringmaster
2WW
Planeswalker - Dinara
+1: Each player exiles a non-land permanent they control.
-2: Exile target creature. It's controller gains life equal to its power.
-6: Starting with you, assign one permanent exiled by ~ to a player and put it on the battlefield under his or her control. Repeat this process until all cards exiled by ~ have been assigned.
[3]
Ability 1 can be used in any circumstance (though not always profitably) and is white-white with a wicked twist. Ability 2 is Swords to Plowshares for -2. Ability 3 is interesting, sort of a social redistribution of wealth. This templating isn't bulletproof, but it's a genuinely tricky one.
However directly or indirectly, that inspired me to design this pacifist 'walker:
Ability 1 can be used in any circumstance (though not always profitably) and is white-white with a wicked twist. Ability 2 is Swords to Plowshares for -2. Ability 3 is interesting, sort of a social redistribution of wealth. This templating isn't bulletproof, but it's a genuinely tricky one.
However directly or indirectly, that inspired me to design this pacifist 'walker:
Ghandi
1WW
Planeswalker-Ghandi
1WW
Planeswalker-Ghandi
+1: Put a Peace counter on target land. Lands with Peace counters have "T: Gain 1 life" as long as you control ~.
-1: Put a Peace counter on target creature. Creatures with Peace counters can't attack or block as long as you control ~.
-5: Destroy each permanent without a Peace counter on it.
{2}
I like how the work your first Ghandi does isn't lost when he's killed and you cast your second copy. I also like that the Ultimate wipes out Ghandi, turning off the existing Peace counters, causing you to think whether you will Oblivion Stone your own permanents or neutralize your opponents' and follow up with a second Ghandi. It's not a problem to put Wrath of God and Armageddon on three-drop, right? (sardonic)
I'm not actually proposing a white version of Karn, but the next iteration in this design is distinctly Karn-esque.
{2}
I like how the work your first Ghandi does isn't lost when he's killed and you cast your second copy. I also like that the Ultimate wipes out Ghandi, turning off the existing Peace counters, causing you to think whether you will Oblivion Stone your own permanents or neutralize your opponents' and follow up with a second Ghandi. It's not a problem to put Wrath of God and Armageddon on three-drop, right? (sardonic)
I'm not actually proposing a white version of Karn, but the next iteration in this design is distinctly Karn-esque.
Mini-Karn
2WW
Planeswalker-Karn
2WW
Planeswalker-Karn
+2: Exile a card from your hand. Return it to your hand when ~ leaves the battlefield.
-1: Exile target creature. Return it to the battlefield under its owner's control when ~ leaves the battlefield .
-5: Restart the game, leaving cards exiled by ~ in exile. Gain 1 life for each of these.
{2}
Next up we have Dall, the Giant planeswalker iteratively designed by Pasteur, Wobbles and GeorgeGone. Again, tweaked slightly:
{2}
Next up we have Dall, the Giant planeswalker iteratively designed by Pasteur, Wobbles and GeorgeGone. Again, tweaked slightly:
Dall Vindler
5W
Planeswalker-Dall
5W
Planeswalker-Dall
+1: Search for up to three basic Plains cards, reveal them and put them in your hand. Then shuffle your library.
-3: Exile target nonland permanent, its owner gains control of target land you control.
-8: You gain an emblem with "No more than one creature can attack you each turn."
{8}
Here's an angel:
Angela Angelsmithe McAngelson 2WW
Planeswalker-Angela
{8}
Here's an angel:
Angela Angelsmithe McAngelson 2WW
Planeswalker-Angela
~ can't be attacked by creatures without flying.
+1: Target creature gains flying. This effect does not end.
-4: something something flying something
Inspired, right?
The static ability is different and probably not right for a core set, though it's not the first planeswalker with a non-loyalty ability and it's also pretty straight-forward. I waffled so much on the final ability that I couldn't even commit. I'm willing to bet your first guess will be better. Mine were, "destroy creatures w/o flying" which is green, not white, "emblem giving flying creatures +1/+1" which seems obnoxious in the current Standard environment and "flying creatures are indestructible" which seems boring. Whatchu got?
I had proposed a White Weenie 'Walker, but it was pointed out that WW is an archetype that should generally be viable without the need for Mythics. However, because I like his first two abilities, here is Aron for reference:
Inspired, right?
The static ability is different and probably not right for a core set, though it's not the first planeswalker with a non-loyalty ability and it's also pretty straight-forward. I waffled so much on the final ability that I couldn't even commit. I'm willing to bet your first guess will be better. Mine were, "destroy creatures w/o flying" which is green, not white, "emblem giving flying creatures +1/+1" which seems obnoxious in the current Standard environment and "flying creatures are indestructible" which seems boring. Whatchu got?
I had proposed a White Weenie 'Walker, but it was pointed out that WW is an archetype that should generally be viable without the need for Mythics. However, because I like his first two abilities, here is Aron for reference:
Aron, Cenn Marshal
1WW
1WW
Planeswalker-Aron
+1: Creatures you control get +1/+1 and gain lifelink until EOT.
-1: Search your library for a creature card with CMC 1 and put it OTB.
-4: Gain an emblem with "Players can't play spells with CMC greater than the number of creatures you control."
{2}
Note that his third ability is, in retrospect, atrociously broken, allowing you to clear your own field and lock everyone down for the rest of the game. Yeeuck.
This design formed around the middle ability. Who doesn't want repeatable Angel's Grace? The last ability, while decent for a white 'walker doesn't really fit here.
Finally, a very partial list of abilities to consider:
This design formed around the middle ability. Who doesn't want repeatable Angel's Grace? The last ability, while decent for a white 'walker doesn't really fit here.
Johnny Saves-A-Lot
1WW
Planeswalker—Johnny
1WW
Planeswalker—Johnny
+1: Target permanent gains protection from the color of your choice until your next turn.
-1: You can't lose the game until your next turn. Until your next turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead.
-4: Each player sacrifices a black permanent and a red permanent.
First abilities to consider:
Make a 1/1.
Team +1/+1.
Team first strike.
Place a +1/+1 counter.
Tap a creature.
Each player sacrifices a nonwhite permanent.
Second abilities to consider:
Make 2-3 1/1s
Team +2/+2
Team +1/+1 and first strike.
Resurrect a guy.
Super-Tap a creature.
Tap all defenders.
Exile a creature.
Fetch a small creature card.
Ultimate abilities to consider:
Make an army of 1/1s.
+1/+1 emblem.
Sleep.
Resurrect all.
Trinisphere emblem.
Worship
I also wanted to suggest the possibility of making a new iteration of Elspeth, Ajani or Gideon. E and A have had to prints, so Gideon could be due for a second. No idea what that would look like.
ReplyDeleteTo clarify, the reason we're re-thinking Elspeth (either version) is how similarly her token making is to Sorin and how that might prove too much for a WB or WuB Standard deck even without Lingering Souls.
"WW is an archetype that should generally be viable without the need for Mythics."
ReplyDeleteI don't thik that's right... where is that coming from?
Most white aggro decks have been dependent on a having a few mythic finishers ever since mythics came out. In the most recent standards, Hero of Bladehold is the best example, but Indomitable Archangel, Angelic Destiny, and the Scars swords have all filled this spot as well.
The Zendikar standards didn't really have a white weenie deck (unless you count Boros Deck Wins, which was more of a burn deck), but even then, white players were running Elspeth, Linvala out of the side, or Baneslayer Angel to beat up other red decks.
Lorwyn-era era Kithkin decks played a couple Ajani Gs.
I guess it'd be fair to say that you could run the deck without those cards, but the tournament level decks need that post-sweeper finisher. It seems like an ideal hole for a mythic to fill.
Here's the argument I was referring to. No one countered it so I was forced to assume everyone agreed. You make a good point though.
DeleteAw blerg. I forgot to keep following that after I put in an early idea.
DeleteAt any rate, WW + mythic finishers is like the Peanut Butter and Jelly of competitive aggro.
Also, I forgot to mention Tempered Steel. It was the premier weenie deck for almost a year, and those Mox Opals were critical. It's less relevant for the current discussion, but maybe if you don't want to see a Mythic PW as part of an aggro strategy, maybe there's an alternate way to give them a cool mythic to work with.
I still really like Dall, but I'm not sure about an ultimate ability that you can use right away. I much prefer an ability you can build to:
ReplyDeleteDall Vindler 5W
Planeswalker-Dall
+1: Search for up to three basic Plains cards, reveal them and put them in your hand. Then shuffle your library.
-2: Exile target permanent you control and target permanent an opponent controls.
-9: You gain an emblem with "If a source would deal damage to you, prevent half that damage, rounded up"
{8}
Even as a resource to fuel the -2 ability, Gift of Estates is just such a drab ability and one that involves dreaded shuffling; there's just no way that I'd want to print a PW with that ability.
DeleteAnd considering that would encourage a very Plains-heavy deck, it's super weird that he has such a splashable mana cost.
DeleteWell, for the purposes of Return to Ravnica/Multicolored core set, I'm fine with removing the "basic" from Plains cards. I don't think this wants to be cheaper than 6, and making a more restrictive cost doesn't seem necessary.
Delete@metaghost I'm not shuffle-phobic, possibly to a fault.
I'm not sure how much coverage you watch, but for the sake of Magic's development as a televised competitive game, the less shuffling the better.
DeleteOh, I love watching streaming coverage and videos. It's excellent.
DeleteBut it's mostly all of MTGO.
Also, don't forget that a repeat-shuffler is SUPER powerful any time its paired with hand filtering cards. On an ability that would pull that many lands out of a deck, you end up with a Jace-like powers of consistency.
DeleteA new Gideon would be cool, especially if he has an ability related to Equipment.
ReplyDeleteOther character concepts:
Loxodon/Rhox
Bird-keeper
Enchantress/Auramancer
Healer/Cleric
Pair of twins sharing a single spark (could be any color, but white fits due to teamwork/cooperation theme)
Ok, here's something.
DeleteOriss, Guardian Sage 3WW
Planeswalker - Oriss (M)
+1: Target permanent you control gains protection from the color of your choice until the beginning of your next turn.
-2: Target player can’t cast spells until the beginning of your next turn.
-8: For each permanent target player controls, that player sacrifices that permanent unless he or she pays {3}.
[4]
Pretending that Oriss from Future Sight (descendant of Orim and native of Mercadia) turned out to have a spark and became a planeswalker.
Those are all cool character ideas. Although, are the twins conjoined?.
DeleteOriss is pretty neat, though I wonder why the spark took away her healing abilities and gave her a one-side tax/wrath (which is freaking brutal at 3 per).
I think the tax-effect was Alex's way of trying to connect the design to Mercadian motifs.
DeleteWhile Tibalt and Tamayo don't demonstrate any sequential synergy in the abilities, should such lacking of that quality be taken as a sign that R&D has moved away from that particular design rubric?
It certainly shows their entertaining other options. Possibly it's just become too hard to make unique, exciting, fair 'walkers that mesh that well. I would still say we should strive for coherence where possible.
DeleteCoherence is ideal, but a collection of thematically resonant effects can be at least as good. I'm very happy with Venser's design, for example, despite it having zero internal synergy. All his abilities still feel right, though, for a planeswalker who specializes in teleportation.
DeleteI didn't give Oriss a straight-up damage prevention ability because, honestly, that would be pretty lame. I considered a sort of Test of Faith thing that put loyalty counters on her for each damage prevented but it's awkward to put together right. So I gave her a protection ability (useful on offense and defense), the Orim's Chant ability from her Grandeur effect, and the ultimate... I honestly couldn't think of a good cleric-y ultimate so I added this because I think it's an interesting ability, and is not unreasonable as some sort of divine magic. It's a stretch, though.
If we change the name, I quite like the first two abilities. The second just doesn't seem to match. Worship fits the theme, but probably overlaps the first two abilities too much. Maybe the "prevent half the damage dealt to you" emblem?
DeleteI feel like this guy is all about saying no. "No you can't touch my man. No you can't cast spells. No you can't change my perfect world."
DeleteJudge Pius 3WW
Planeswalker - Pius (M)
+1: Target permanent you control gains protection from the color of your choice until the beginning of your next turn.
-2: Target player can’t cast spells until the beginning of your next turn.
-8: For the rest of the game, players skip their draw step.
Not sure he's any fun though.
Description: A middle-aged woman, an Abbess before her spark bestowed itself. Think "Mother of Runes" or Wynne from Dragon Age. Potentially could have a place in the overarching story as a counterpart to Liliana, and as her eventual either killer or healer (depending on the course the Veil's magic takes).
ReplyDeleteMechanically: 3 CMC planeswalkers seem to go hand in hand with symmetrical + abilities. All three of the abilities are very white and invite creative deckbuilding decisions, while potentially just working for "value" in a random deck. I understand that there's value in the gameplay of building up to an ultimate, but having one exactly equal starting loyalty allows for the gameplay of choice beitween ramping up loyalty first or immediately pulling the trigger, which is not a bad thing either.
Hagia Isidora 1WW
Planeswalker - Isidora
+2 Each player gains 2 life.
- 1 Return target creature card with converted mana cost 1 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield.
-3 Return to the battlefield all permanent cards that were put into your graveyard from the battlefield this turn.
[3]
I love the idea of Second Sunrise as an immediate ultimate, and with a good amount of revision this could definitely work as an Expert-set PW. But I'm under the impression that you guys were trying to avoid designing something as idiosyncratic as Gideon.
DeleteIdiosyncratic in the sense that it's only good in a certain kind of deck with a certain amount of support, like Nissa? Isidora certainly doesn't have any abilities as weird or complicated as Gideon's third.
DeleteI like her. I do think core set 'walkers should be a bit easier to include in your Limited deck. Jace and Chandra have more focus than usual, so focus is fine, but this really requires a lot one-drops and I doubt there's a combo in M13 for her third ability apart from simply attacking a lot.
A technical problem with her third ability is that you can use it the turn you cast her... infinitely! She'll die before the ability resolves, getting her back. She's a new card, so you can use her ability again. Forever.
Maybe
DeleteIsidora 1WW
Planeswalker - Isidora
+1: Target permanent you control gains protection from the color of your choice until the beginning of your next turn.
-1: Search your library for a permanent card with converted mana cost 1 or less and put it into your hand.
-3: Return to the battlefield all other permanent cards that were put into your graveyard from the battlefield this turn.
[3]
Searching for Tron lands always seemed odd to me. You're right about the necessity of "other" in the ultimate, of course. The first ability is solid, and my shying away from it may be just because it reads too much like "Target creature you control is unblockable".
DeleteThe other thing that the Proc-Sunrise combination of abilities gives us is the feeling of escalation.
Proc on a PW is a little effect that serves a similar role (in theory) to token-making in terms of protecting its walker, but also has definite combos in Constructed. I imagine a younger version of myself loving to get back Eager Cadets ad nauseam.
First ability needs "Another":
Delete+1: Another target permanent you control gains protection from the color of your choice until the beginning of your next turn.
Exclude lands (and 'thopters):
Delete-1: Search your library for a permanent card with converted mana cost 1 and put it into your hand.
I could be happy with the last one. Between that and the Proc, which promotes more fun deckbuilding/gameplay? And is Searching enough better that it's better than having an escalation from the - to the ultimate?
DeleteI think so.
DeleteIsadora of the Fold 1WW
Planeswalker - Isadora
+1: Another target permanent you control gains protection from the color of your choice until the beginning of your next turn.
-1: Search your library for a permanent card with converted mana cost 1 and put it onto the battlefield.
-3: Return to the battlefield all other permanent cards that were put into your graveyard from the battlefield this turn.
[3]
I love a second sunrise, but as an ultimate it seems a little underwhelming.
ReplyDeleteBahia, master healer 1WW
Planeswalker, Bahia
+1: Untap target permanent.
-1: Return all creatures that were placed in your graveyard this turn to the battlefield tapped.
-6: Return all other noncreature permanents from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
[3]
I could see moving Second Sunrise to the middle ability, but -1 seems far too cheap.
DeleteThe ultimate feels too much like the middle ability, and worse too boot.
I mean, I was really just going for a Dolmen Gate for the second ability. I suppose it could just be "Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to attacking creatures you control", but I hate having to use it preemptively. Dolmen Gate saw 0 play though, and Second Sunrise was never used for returning anything but Eggs. I'm pretty sure that ability is safe in standard, and only a little nutty in a Modern Martyr list.
DeleteThe ultimate ability is an Open the Vaults just for you that also gets back Planeswalkers. It might look like the second ability, but I'm pretty sure that it's insane.
Maybe I'm being hardheaded, but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Elspeth Tirel in M13.
ReplyDeleteTirel might not be as popular as EKE, but that's partly because Tirel's less powerful overall. Elspeth T's well balanced, plays nicely in the current Standard, and more or less fits the basic template of +, -, - ultimate.
I also much prefer Elspeth Tirel as a reprint to Knight Errant.
DeleteDoes she play well in the current Standard?
DeleteShe's even more similar to Sorin than EKE.
So the WB deck auto-plays both 'walkers (if she's good enough, otherwise, she continues to see no play), which seems boring.
I also much prefer Elspeth Tirel to EKE (surprise surprise).
DeleteI think EKE is much closer to duplicating Sorin than Tirel is. I also believe that there is a definite space between "auto-play" and "no play" that Tirel could hit. EKE is an automatic on its strength alone, where as decks actually have to consider whether or not Tirel is synergistic enough to be worth it.
I bring yet another odd bundle of abilities, but this time less of an obvious build-around and more of a "there's something pretty strong here, but how?" As usual, first a brief anecdote on the flavor:
ReplyDeleteTravellers of the Blind Eternities may, in the course of their journeys, have the good fortune to encounter an enigmatic blind hermit who goes by the name of Error. Further insight will reveal that he is in fact a wizened warrior-poet, known and respected for sharing his counsel with other planeswalkers. Both novice and road-weary walkers may seek him out for advice, and his weird ways have lent him a sort of neutrality that can be useful for those seeking to negotiate with their rivals. For an art description, he'd be depicted as a balded, gaunt fellow, neatly but simply dressed, a powerful-looking sword sheathed at his sided, supported by a rustic but well crafted staff. (Really, just cut Dosan's hair, and give him more setting-general clothing.) (The character and flavor come from a cumulative combination of the eventual fate of the greek god Hermes; King Bumi from Avatar, and Butchie from The Wire, if that helps at all.) (In the long run, he'd probably be RW; but in this iteration, firmly white.)
Anyways, on to the real part:
Error, Warrior Poet 1WW
Planeswalker - Error
+1: You gain life equal to the number of cards you've drawn this turn.
-2: You get an emblem with “Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control, gain life equal to its power.”
-7: Until end of turn, other permanents you control become copies of target permanent.
[4]
Four *may* turn out to be too much starting loyalty.
DeleteSeems white-blue. White doesn't normally get card draw, so his first ability screams "play me with divination" and his ultimate is very blue. I'm also not a big fan of disposable emblems, including Sorin's; it seems counter to their otherwise uber-rare nature. The character concept is very cool though.
Delete