The overwhelming reaction by most Magic players to Murder was “Finally! How is it possible that this card has never been printed before! This is Black’s new iconic spell.”
That reaction, and the symmetry with Cancel, got me wondering what that iconic obvious spell would be at 1WW, 1GG, and 1RR — do these cards already exist? Is there an interesting design gap here?
Let’s first consider how many aspects Cancel and Murder have in common that we would want to keep in the cycle. Do they all need to be instants? Do they all need to read simply “BLANK target BLANK”? Do all the names need to be a single word? And a verb at that? Let’s consider opening it up to all types for a moment and see which existing spells stand out.
For red, maybe it’s Traitorous Blood, but its printing didn't exactly inspire the same reaction as Murder. For white, a case could be made for Guardian's Pledge, reflecting white going wide with weenies. On the other hand, it's generally worse (other than being cheaper, common, and instant) than Overrun, which is so iconic for green, so Pledge just doesn't feel right. For green, there's… flat out nothing, really, not even a suitable 1GG creature. I guess Alluring Scent fits some of the criteria but if it were so iconic it would have been reprinted in core sets and that’s clearly not the case.
It’s not looking good for the idea that the rest of the 1CC cycle already exists, so let’s see what happens if we open things up even wider and ignore that restriction. Companions from their days in the original boon cycle, Lightning Bolt and Giant Growth instantly spring to mind. Unsummon is arguably as iconic as Cancel. Hmmm, maybe there’s a perfect cycle of iconic spells at C as well. Maybe even 1C. Let’s think about this for a minute. What is already there and what is missing? But since we are opening up the mana costs, let’s stick to instants.
Below are cards that leap out to me as possible candidates, though some choices (Dangerous Wager, I’m looking at you) are a bit of a stretch, and others (cough, Dark Ritual, cough) would not actually see print today. The table below gives a good start with the conspicuous absence at W. There are actually a lot of choices at W but nothing jumps out as iconic nor have any white spells been reprinted a bunch.
W
|
U
|
B
|
R
|
G
| |
C
|
?
|
Unsummon
|
Dark Ritual
|
Lightning Bolt
|
Giant Growth
|
1C
|
Glorious Charge
|
Mana Leak
|
Diabolic Edict
|
Dangerous Wager
|
Titanic Growth
|
1CC
|
?
|
Cancel
|
Murder
|
?
|
?
|
Now check out the 1CC row. Ah-hah! The only cards in it are still Cancel and Murder despite C and 1C being filled out fairly well. While we can debate and/or replace some of the choices in the other rows, no wonder the absent cycle of perfect 1CC instants stands out as missing - it really is!
Can we crowdsource a filled out version of the “perfect iconic 1CC cycle” or even the whole table? Are there cards missing? Are some of these the wrong cards? Can we design the gaps? Can we design better cards than some of the suggestions for C and 1C above? Remember, we’re going for the "wow BLANK is such a perfect card, how is it possible that it wasn't printed by now" reaction.
To help seed the discussion on the 1CC row, I’ll toss out a contender for the missing 1WW (I feel sorry for white since I couldn’t find an entry at W either), although I’m sure you all can improve this or come up with something completely different that is a lot better.
Let’s try this:
Unexist
1WW
Instant
Exile target non-land permanent.
1WW
Instant
Exile target non-land permanent.
Obviously we can’t just do BLANK target BLANK with this effect as it would be way over-powered without “non-land” in there. Maybe we can find a BLANK target BLANK effect but for now let’s consider this. It’s an Oblivion Ring that can’t be undone. Let’s compare it to Cancel which can actually also hit things that would be un-targetable if they actually resolved, which this can’t. But... the “cost” of Cancel is that it is conditional in terms WHEN you can cast it (while a spell is on the stack), and this doesn’t have that issue. Also, this is WAY better than Murder, which doesn’t bode well for a cycle (or for it being printable at common). We could take it down another notch by making it a sorcery, but that defeats the purpose of creating a cycle of instants.
What about this?
Unexist
1WW
Instant
Exile target non-land, non-creature permanent
1WW
Instant
Exile target non-land, non-creature permanent
This could actually be balanced. It’s worse than Oblivion Ring since it can’t hit creatures. Comparable to Revoke Existence, but for an extra W it’s an instant and it hits planeswalkers. Seems pretty fair. But now is the level too far below its counterparts? Revoke Existence is only a marginal sideboard card and this seems a lot more restricted than Cancel and Murder even though the effect is even more permanent.
This is hard work. And this is as far as I think I can take it. Time for the crowd to take over and perfect the 1WW instant, and dream up cards to fill the 1RR and 1GG gaps as well.
BLANK, Cancel, Murder, BLANK, BLANK
Let’s fill in the blanks!
Not sure why you don't include Healing Salve in the otherwise complete list of the original boon cycle, Trevor, and I'm not convinced that any of those 1C spells are truly iconic, but that doesn't make the primary question any less discussion-worthy.
ReplyDeleteWhile the brevity of these spells is a big part of their identity, I would argue it's the combination of their design elegance and the fact that no other color could have a card like it that makes them so iconic. Those are the features I'll be looking for in the rest of the cycle.
The first Unexist is nearly identical to Judge Soul (Exile target nonwhite creature) and both are too similar to Murder for this cycle. The second Unexist is interesting. White can certainly deal with artifacts, enchantments and planeswalkers. It's nearly Bramblecrush which makes me wonder if it shouldn't be the green entry, but the fact that it could go either way suggests that it's not really iconic.
The red entry probably has to deal damage or be Pillage, and we don't do 3cc LD anymore, so I propose "~ deals 4 damage to target c/p."
Can the green card be a 3/3 with Flash?
I like 1RR ~ deals 4 damage to target c/p a lot.
DeleteMaybe we can have our cake and eat it too with wanting to give green a creature but sticking with instants, if we did 1GG put a 3/3 Beast creature token into play.
That's a perfect way of putting it Jay - "the combination of their design elegance and the fact that no other color could have a card like it that makes them so iconic".
DeleteThat kind of answers why not Healing Salve, but I reply more on that below...
1WW: Exile target permanent that dealt damage to you this turn.
ReplyDelete1WW: Exile target creature, it controller may ~effect.
where effect can be lifegain, card draw, land drop.
1GG: +X/+X and fight.
1GG: Search your library for any number of lands, reveal them, shuffle your library, then put one into play tapped, and put the rest on top in any order.
1RR: unblocked creatures you control gain double strike until eot.
1RR: deal 4 damage divided as you choose between any number of creatures.
I like where a lot of these are going and they inspire some more ideas:
Delete1WW: Exile target permanent. It's controller may return a permanent of the same type from his or her graveyard to the battlefield.
This sort of addresses the un-do-ability of white's answers but in a way that seems rather white.
1GG: Target creature gets +2/+2 and fights another target creature.
I think that's pretty awesome - the instant prey upon. Sometimes as good as murder and sometimes let's you get in for lethal.
1GG: Search your library for 3 basic land cards, reveal them, shuffle your library, then put one into play tapped, one in your hand, and one on top of your library.
I think that's a little more balanced although it probably needs more development. Instant rampant growth though, I like it.
I like the 1RR deal 4 damage divided as you choose, and also Jay's suggestion at 1RR.
Naturalize is far more iconic than Titanic Growth, and a good candidate for the most iconic 1G instant.
ReplyDeleteBut I agree with Jay - you can't restrict this to instants. I think the red one should be Pillage, Molten Rain, or perhaps a 1RR Craterize. I think a 1RR "4 damage anywhere" instant is very sensible too, based on both Lightning Blast and Flame Javelin (which is your choice of RRR or 2RR).
All the white Unexists fail to meet Mark Rosewater's criterion for the best "white answers" which is that they should themselves have answers. Many white answers also fail this test, such as StP/PtE, Unmake, Iona's Judgment etc, but the best ones in MaRo's eyes are those which can be answered: O-Ring, Pacifism, Journey to Nowhere, Gideon's Lawkeeper. If these cards are to be truly representative of their colour then I think the white ones (at least the white ones which count as "answers") need to meet that criterion.
None of those are very good at 1WW, so perhaps Prison Term or a 1WW Faith's Fetters?
(BTW, Jay, Unsummon wasn't the blue boon; it was slightly more valuable than that... ;) )
Ancestral Something, right? I can't recall it's name.
DeleteNot prison term because that's uncommon, but relaxing the need for it to be instants does make life easier for white and green especially. I think it begs enchantment for white and creature for green then, but I'm still curious to see if we can imagine a 1WW instant at white that inspires that same reaction as Murder did. Maybe it's not possible.
ReplyDeleteRegarding naturalize vs. titanic growth, my first inclination was to agree but there is an identical card in white, so we can hardly decide that naturalize is the epitome of what a green common instant for 1G should do. Titanic growth is less iconic but actually fits green better. It does still have a similar problem but at least Show of Valor is not the exact same card, showing that green really is better than anyone at pump.
Jay, I hadn't thought about the fact that Healing Salve was in the boon cycle as reason enough to choose it over the many other W choices. On the one hand, this is a good reason. Dark ritual really does need to be replaced though, for the same reason that we have Unsummon over Ancestral whatever-it-was.
I don't think this really applies. Blue used to get burn spells - remember Psionic Blast? White doesn't get artifact removal as efficient as Disenchant any more, so I don't think any other colour could get Naturalize for its current price under current design philosophy.
DeleteErr, about Healing Salve, I was going to say that on the other hand, it's so much less elegant / more complicated than all the other spells at C because of the choice involved. But it's better than a question mark so I think it is at least a good placeholder. Hmm, we need some kind of wiki where we can maintain an updated version of the table perhaps?
ReplyDeleteTrevor, since I don't have your e-mail address (as far as I know), I'm just leaving this comment to let you know I edited the content of this post a bit to fix up some errors and cut back on the abundance of ellipses. Hopefully I didn't alter the intention of what you wrote, but let me know if I screwed something up. For instance, I had no idea what it could mean to go "wide with weenies", so I assumed "wide" was supposed to be "wild".
ReplyDeleteit was supposed to be wide... as in lots of creatures. Green likes big fatties, white likes creatures too but it likes lots of small ones. Hence titanic growth vs. glorious charge... and I like ellipses, but maybe I use a few too many...
DeleteHere's my response post on the matter of designing "perfect" cards: http://millingfor53.blogspot.com/2012/08/murder-he-wrote.html
ReplyDeleteInteresting article, thanks for the response. I'm glad the post got you thinking. I'm not really too hung up on the word "perfect" though - it's really not the right word. The article might have been better named "Finishing the iconic cycle" or some such.
DeleteIn any case, Jay nailed it up above when he said: "I would argue it's the combination of their design elegance and the fact that no other color could have a card like it that makes them so iconic".
That's really what I'm interested in here.
But your post adds a valuable wrinkle. We could attempt to add the constraint that the flavour knocks it out of the park to the extent that if there is a number on the card it actually means something. I'd be very happy if we come up with a 1CC cycle that meets this constraint.
For other rows, like the C row, this pushes Lightning Bolt and Giant Growth out of the picture. Do you have suggestions for replacements? Either new spells or actually maybe we just need to design new names for these spells to get them to resonate at the level of murder and cancel? Maybe give that a tri. :)
About the white 1WW. I agree that it does not fit the current colour philosophy as explained by Maro. If we add that as an additional constraint, we need to do something like 1WW: exile target creature you control and target creature an opponent controls, or exile target permanent you control and a permanent your opponent controls that shares a type with it. Someone sacrifices himself for the good of the side kind of effect.
ReplyDeleteA more complex version of this could be to give fiend hunter's ability to a creature: until eot any creatures blocking or blocked by target creature are exiled. When this creature dies, return all exiled creatures into play under their owner's control.
It sounds better on blocked by in my mind, and feels like a reverse titan trigger too.
I like 1WW: Exile target permanent. It's owner exiles target permanent you control.
DeleteAbout the green 1GG, I really like the +x/+x (cannot decide if X=1 or 2 is better) and fight. It is on par with murder, with the potential to be a 2 for one very often. I feel I would be excited to open it and play it.
ReplyDeleteSomething which the white one does not manage in any of the interactions presented above. Perhaps we should try another direction, something like adding a layer to timely reinforcements perhaps, which was quite an exciting card, with 2C cost, which should easily be tweaked to 1WW.
1WW: exile target creature if your opponent controls more creatures than you.
I'm glad someone remembered White's balancing as one of their iconic abilities, however, I noticed that both Cancel and Murder are absolute cards; they take a card and stop it. White could mimic that with a Silence-like effect. I don't know if 1CC would be fair for a Silence printed at common, but it's a starting point.
DeleteOooh the |"1WW: exile target creature if your opponent controls more creatures than you" is definitely a contender.
DeleteI like the idea of silence-type ability but since it's just W and rare, I don't think it's right at 1WW. I mean neither murder or cancel are printable at B or U but rare. I also can't see it being iconic or elegant really.
Some concepts:
ReplyDelete1WW: Creatures you control gain vigilance and are indestructible until end of turn.
White's "iconic" needs to revolve around its most iconic traits - its desire to protect its own and to fight with big weenie armies. How do you get that across in a card? Encourage every creature to fight, and protect them! It still works as a combat trick, if you need the indestructibility.
1RR: CARDNAME deals 4 damage to target creature and 2 damage to each other creature.
Flame Slash is R. Pyroclasm is 1R. This feels pretty resonant in my head, and feels very red.
1GG: Put four +1/+1 counters on target creature.
Pretty straightforward. I couldn't ever see running an artifact or enchantment removal spell for 1CC outside of Limited, and Green (not white) is primary in Naturalize effects. I respect that other people in the comment thread are proposing fight effects, but fight is worse than destruction most of the time, and tacking on a P/T buff just to make fight work alongside Murder seems like flaky design to me.
Some good ideas here but these all seem a bit overpowered for common.
DeleteFor the C cycle, I would pitch:
ReplyDeleteStave Off/Unsummon/Bone Splinters/Shock/Giant Growth
I'm wary of 1RR: deal 4 damage to target creature or player at Common. In the abstract, it's definitely an uncommon, but it's printable in either rarity so it may do the trick.
I'd support 1GG: Put a 3/3 Elephant token into play.
Battery/Ambush as a 1GG seems perfectly appropriate.
For white, I would potentially propose a Rally the Troops+Peach Garden Oath:
1WW
Instant
Untap all creatures you control. You gain 2 life for each creature you control.
I like stave off but if it was that "right", I can't help thinking it should have been reprinted in M12. Maybe it will be in RTR though.
DeleteI like the fit of this 1WW idea a lot but I think it's a little complex.
SIMPLIFY!
ReplyDeleteDeport 1WW
Sorcery
Put target non-land permanent on top of its owner's library.
Speculate 1RR
Sorcery
Discard two cards, draw two cards.
Expand 1GG
Sorcery
You may play any number of additional lands this turn.
I do like how simple these are but each of them needs more work I think could also be tweaked to work as instants.
DeleteThe white one for example could be made to reflect white's balance a bit more and then also as a bonus read less blue.
1WW: Put target permanent opponent controls and target permanent you control on top of their owners' libraries.
The red one I feel is also a little too close to an overlap ability with blue so not really iconic as red and red only (same can be said for the 1WW I just suggested - shares with blue).
The green suggestion however is certainly very green and I'd like to see a 1GG ramp spell but I don't think that's quite it.
Really like the white one here. Very white, very playable in a variety of formats and clearly common. I don't love the red one because I hate red looting. I think WOTC made a bad decision there. The green one is good, but it seems a bit weak and too situational. I would rather have a 3/3 or a instant version of cultivate.
DeleteThe 1RR Red spell seems like it would be land destruction but that would be strong and conditional land destruction would be too watered-down for this approach. It would be nice to simply "destroy" a land's ability to make colored mana.
ReplyDeleteConditions would be nice. Non-basic is classic red, but I don't know how useful that would be in drafts or casual play. You could say "tapped land," but it's wonky and new and not much different from just destroying a land outright.
Interesting. Ghost Quarter as an instant but that also lets people find colourless.
Delete1RR: Destroy target land. It's owner may search their library for a basic land and put it into play.
More like:
DeleteLevel
1RR
Instant
Target land produces colorless mana instead of any other type. (This effect lasts indefinitely.)
Red has done this before (two whole times), but so have Green and Blue. There's no reason for it to be an instant, it's got memory issues, and it's an old, old angle. This isn't a serious card; I'm just spitballing an alternative to "Destroy target [condition] land."
Relentless Hunt
ReplyDelete1GG
Instant
An attacking creature becomes blocked by target creature.
It's almost too wordy for what the goal is here, but still more elegant than a pump-and-fight mechanic (which IS a great idea). The trick is keeping it simple while making it powerful enough to jump over the "if able" rider that most cards like this (Hunt Down) have. If Dazzling Beauty and Curtain of Light can block unblockable creatures with nothing, letting Garruk's Packleader snatch a tapped Welkin Tern from the air can't be insurmountable.
Aw man, the timing restrictions on Dazzling Beauty and Curtain of Light probably make this a bridge too far.
DeleteI think just using fight is more elegant and I think that 1GG for an instant prey upon is probably not quite good enough so tacking on the pump is ok. Since pump and fight both come up a lot, I don't think that's too complicated after all.
DeleteI think that the elegance that you wast to preserve here is the BLANK target BLANK 1CC instant with a single word name.
ReplyDeleteBut maybe it does not have to be BLANK TARGET BLANK and can just be
NAME 1CC
TYPE RARITY
BLANK BLANK BLANK
Heres what I was thinking:
Heal 1WW
Instant Common
Gain 10 life
Cancel 1UU
Instant Common
Counter target spell
Murder 1BB
Instant Common
Destroy target creature
Erupt 1RR
Instant Uncommon
Destroy target land
Spider 1GG
Creature - Spider Uncommon
Flash, Reach, Deathtouch
1/3
any my argument to back them up:
HEAL: a templating change would be required here, but i do not think that much is lost between "You gain 10 life" and "Gain 10 life". White is the "healing, cleric color" and i think that fits in nicely here. This may have to be uncommon to prevent issues in limited, but i think that its simple enough to be a common, and gets across the point to players that white is the healing color.
CANCEL: nuff said. blue counters things
MURDER: DITTO. black kills dorks
ERUPT: yes i think this card would be powerful, and yes a three mana land destruction is risky, but at uncommon it would not effect limited as much, and comparing it to the recently released m13 card Craterize, which is a 3R sorcery "destroy target land" at common, this "ERUPT" might not be much more of a stretch, and would give mono red decks a different limited plan then BURN
SPIDER: This one breaks the mold a little as well, but i think it not only gets across the idea that green is the creature color, but it is also an "instant" that can kill any attacking creature (that doesn't have first strike or something) and also introduces the flavor of magic's spiders.
What do you guys think?
I like the idea here, but these cards would be horrible to play against.
DeleteGaining 10 is just huge and would really slow down the format. Not saying that it's too powerful (although it's close), just that the kind of Magic it encourages runs counter to short tournaments. Gaining 7 at sorcery speed would be closer to ok (see angel's mercy), but that's still not an effect you really want. Also, it'd be "You gain 10 life"
The problem with 3cmc land destruction isn't limited, but its constructed. Any Elf/Bird just opens the door to create huge problems.
I like the spider, but it's so similar to Murder that it doesn't feel as green.
That spider is pretty awesome. It's not too similar to murder because it only kills things that attack. It's arguably closer to Divine Verdict except it can hit hexproof creatures that attack, and it has a body.
DeleteI still am hoping for a cycle of instants but if we give up on this idea then the flash deadly recluse is sweet.
Is flash deadly recluse really an improvement on Ambush Viper?
Deleteas someone who has flashed in Ambush Viper when being attacked by a flier only to groan, yes, yes it is
DeleteTome scour and healing salve would be 1cc spells in my opinion and I agree that the 2cc ones don't feel right. The 3/3 token for 1gg seems like an iconic instant
ReplyDeleteInspiration = 1WW - should be Creatures you control get indestructable until en of turn. Combats Murder Murder and Red burn.
ReplyDeleteTrample = 1GG - should be Creatures you control gain Trample until end of turn.
Explosion = 1RR should be deals 2 damage to all creatures without flying.
In my opinion those are Flavorful and shouldn't be Over powered.
I really, really, really think:
ReplyDeleteHunt 1GG
Instant
Put a 3/3 Beast creature token onto the battlefield.
is perfect.
It's sad that Green can't do something iconic in 3 words, but what matters in my mind isn't the text length, but that the card does exactly one thing that's dripping with color street cred and hits the table at instant speed for 3 mana.
To this extent, I submit that, despite the fact that it's wordy, Volcanic Fallout deserves notice as the iconic red instant. If it were to be printed as part of this cycle, it would lose the "Volcanic Fallout can't be countered." clause leaving:
Fallout 1RR
Instant
Fallout does 2 damage to each creature and each player.
How is that not perfect??? It does one thing, for 3 mana that is both brutally red and instant speed.
I have no idea what White should be doing, but I don't think we should feel locked into these all being removal. This could be a 3/2 cycle, with Black/Blue/Red getting removal and White/Green get cards that advance their board position.
Yeah, Fallout looks pretty good. Unlike Cancel and Murder, there is a far higher percentage of decks that it doesn't work against. But then, it's probably as good as we're going to get for red.
DeleteFirst off, Fallout gets my vote hands down. That card is everything Red is supposed to be.
DeleteI think Green has to have better options. I have a few problems with hunt, aside from it being more of a permanent than a spell. Green is the fundamental tap-out color, and Hunt would never be cast on your own turn making it telegraphed and out of place. Most spells (like Murder and Cancel) scale with the cards they interact with, whereas Hunt gets outclassed as the game progresses as creatures tend to do.
Thinking about how Hunt could scale, interact with creatures, and be used on either players turn for effect, has given me an idea for a card that also draws a little inspiration from Jurassic Park.
Pack Hunter
1GG
Instant
Search your library for a creature card with the same name as a permanent you control, put it onto the battlefield and it gains haste.
Pack Hunter clearly isn't a common, nor does it work all that well in limited, but I really like the card for green.
My initial take on it incorporated Hunt more directly and was a little more complex, but embodied more of what you'd want to seen in a limited rare, or constructed-playable card. I think if Green were to get a clone effect, this is the type of thing it should be.
Pack Hunter
1GG
Creature
Flash
You may have Pack Hunter enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature you control. If you do it gains haste.
3/3
"Clever girl"
Is Fallout common? I really can't imagine the card except as an uncommon.
DeleteThis seems like a perfect fit for green:
ReplyDeletePrevail
1GG
Instant
Regenerate all permanents you control
The power level is right, the card is simple, and the effect is undeniably green.
I like this one. An opponent should feel like they've taken a hit when these cards hit the table. Prevail does it and getting a 3/3 creature doesn't.
DeleteCompared to Regenerate, which just isn't a particularly playable card, would you want this? It seems like you would need to know your opponent has sweepers and have a creature base that is particularly vulnerable to them. Even then, this is just a dead card enough of the time that I assume it'd be only marginally playable at best. I guess it's better than Ghostway in that it can protect your noncreature permanents from destruction spells, but it just doesn't scan as a card you'd want to play.
DeleteOften worse than Safe Passage, right?
DeleteStill a very good swing and worth considering.
The best I can do for white is this. It follows along the lines of Unexist with a corrected power level.
ReplyDeleteMake Pure
1WW
Instant
Target non-land permanent loses all abilities
One inexcusable problem is that it probably needs to be written as follows for rules purposes:
Make Pure
1WW
Instant
Target non-land permanent loses all non-characteristic defining abilities.
I totally agree, the scaling seems super relevant and I'm impressed you found a new avenue to explore for Greens "Instants that you still want to cast on your turn" thing that it does a lot.
ReplyDeleteI just want to point out that Fallout isn't a catchy action verb like the rest of the cycle, so we need to fix the name.
I vote we call it Explode.
(Above I am referring to Prevail, Home Run good brewer, home run.)
DeleteI agree that the on your turn thing is very green. A very perceptive take on this
DeleteWhen I saw Murder, I immediately felt that Magic needed this:
ReplyDeleteKill
BR
Instant
Destroy target creature.
You've hit upon a wrinkle that I decided against bringing up - which is cycles of CC and 1CC where the two C's are different colours. There's enough interesting discussion here on the mono-colours that I think this might be a bit of a distraction to get into. On the other hand, it could be a real interesting distraction.
DeleteThe Red one could be:
ReplyDeleteBorrow 1RR
Sorcery
Untap target permanent. Gain control of it until end of turn. If it's a creature, it gains haste.
I like the Green Pack Hunter where you search your library for a copy of a permanent you control. That's an effect that could have existed, but hasn't in that form. I don't think it needs haste, though.
actually since there have been so many takes on this, including Traitorous Blood and Mark of Mutiny lately, I think that designing an iconic 1RR instant version of this would be worth considering (if there hasn't been one)
Delete1RR
Instant
Put a token into play that is a copy of target creature. It gains haste. Sacrifice it at end of turn.
Why make Heat Shimmer an instant? Do we want red playing more defensive spells? More at EOT shenanigans?
DeleteWhy are we against the land destruction idea. I think a new stone rain is needed. The simplicity of it is amazing.
ReplyDeleteRavage
1RR
Destroy target land.
It is not OP. It is clearly similar to an old standby. It is very red. The text is short and sweet.
A 3cc LD spell is something that WotC has been purposefully avoiding. I think it must be because even though it's not OP, it is unfun when it works.
DeleteNice guest article!
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking about it, and I have suggestions for the 1WW, 1RR, and 1GG, but I had to make some choices first. "BLANK target BLANK" is just too restrictive, so none of my suggestions follow that model. I did, however, stick to the one-word verb name convention, because that does feel very iconic. Also, they're all instants. Last thing, as Cancel demonstrates, I didn't worry about them being particularly strong cards, just distinctive, straight forward effects.
Sanctify (Common)
1WW
Instant
Prevent the next 3 damage that would be dealt to you and/or permanents you control this turn.
You gain 3 life.
The problem with Healing Salve was that you had to choose one effect or another. Why not give both? This effect has been printed before, (Abuna's Chant, Recuperate,) but never in a simple, straight forward manner.
Ignite (Common)
1RR
Instant
Ignite deals 5 damage to each player.
If the one mana Red, iconic spell is Shock/Lightning Bolt, then any other damage spell should have a different feel. Flame Rift is an important card, since it has different value in different situations and demonstrates the sacrifice you need to make for RDW.
Stampede (Common)
1GG
Instant
Attacking creatures get +1/+0 and gain trample until end of turn.
This is a reprint from Ice Age. Originally it was a rare, but I like it as a common, because Overrun effects have all been moved to Rare for Limited balance. However, Overrun is a staple Green effect that I think should appear in lower rarities somehow. This is the weakest Overrun I could imagine, and it shows the effect without busting any formats. Also, great name.
Ooh! What about:
ReplyDelete1GG
Revitalize
Instant
Untap and regenerate all creatures you control.
Awesome name (combining Refresh/Regenerate and Vitalize.) Also awesome effect. But it's an Uncommon for sure. Should we split the cycle among different rarities like the Boon Cycle did?
DeleteI think we really want to. If the red's to be something like Flame Rift+, Flame Javelin, or Fallout, I think it *definitely* works better at Uncommon.
DeleteThe requirements then would be "Setting-generic, straightforward spells that exemplify one aspect of their color at 1CC"?
I do like Stampede or "Put a 3/3 Elephant OTB" at 1GG common though. Should that be called "Remember"?
I love Revitalize, but while it's distinctly green, it's not iconic of green.
DeleteI think we really want to get land, make creatures or pump creatures. It's hard to beat Cultivate in the first category and I'm not excited about Really Titanic Growth. If we're making one creature, why would we use Sorcery or Instant instead of Creature? If we're making multiple creatures, why not be white?
My favorite suggestion for green so far is Stampede.
I would like to beat the question to a pulp of "what would the common instant be if there is one" before moving on to whether removing either the instant or common requirements would make a better cycle.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to somehow collate the responses and allow folks to vote on different options but not sure what the best way to do that would be... or when. I like the open-ended brainstorming discussion that's been going on so far and don't want to cut that off by getting into voting.
Are there any other cycles that exist at split rarities? (Not counting vertical cycles within a color or faction). It seems weird to me. Also, moving to uncommon seems to defeat the original question, which was about distilling 1XX cards down to their simplest form.
ReplyDelete3/2 card type splits do get printed, so it'd be more reasonable to consider a sorcery-instant split. Considering sorceries also fixes a couple problems with some of the suggestions above. 1RR, deal 4 damage is really powerful at instant, but fair as a sorcery. White is even easier at sorcery speed: reprint Righteous Charge.
This raises the question - these days, is it strength or complexity that makes a card uncommon?
DeleteObviously either can be the case, but should we assume (for the purposes of this exercise) that cards that straddle the line on power but are simple enough will be put in Limited environments where they'd be suited for the lower rarity?
As Trevor pointed out, Ancestral Recall was not the same rarity as the rest of its cycle. Can't think of other examples like that, but there's also the vertical cycle in which you see a common, uncommon and a rare all within a single color (not like the angels from M13). That said, I think being common is a big part of this (still theoretical) cycle's identity. I don't think being an instant is integral at all.
DeleteDespite claims that rarity != power, the correlation is undeniable. That said, Wizards is happy to print powerful commons, provided that they don't skew the game in Limited. Murder is very strong but will ultimately only answer one threat. Opening 3 in your Sealed deck is awesome, but 100% beatable. Opening 3 Day of Judgments is not.
So, Lightning Bolt can be common, but Pyroclasm can't be. At least not in a set without a massive leaning toward 3+ toughness creatures.
1RR Lava Axe us both seems fine since it's really not better than an actual Lava Axe (but there's no reason for it to be an instant).
Instant Threaten doesn't feel red: Use your guy to defend against your other guys. Especially since it reduces an attack from X unblocked creatures to X-2. We could make 1RR sorcery Threaten, which is strictly worse than Threaten. Cancel's strictly worse than Counterspell, but Threaten was never Counterspell.
1RR deal 4 to target c/p is worse than Murder against creatures, but better against players. Is it too good overall? If Bolt was reprintable (for a limited time), doesn't this have to be?
I really think the most iconic thing red can do is burn.
Maybe this is the right way to do resonant cards when they are not really top down... first decide what the most iconic thing for each colour to do is, then spend as much time on the name of the spell as the effect.
DeleteIf blue is countering a spell, black is destroying a creature, then I think red = burn is probably right. But the problem is how do you do burn without some kind of arbitrary number like 2 or 3?
And how do you do an iconic resonant spell with an arbitrary number?
Maybe something like
Delete1RR Ignite
Instant
Do damage to target player for each mountain you control.
This is like Spire Barrage which was common, but a little cheaper and more restricted.
Two more white entries:
ReplyDeleteForgive
1WW Instant (C)
Remove any number of target creatures from combat.
Pray
1WW Instant (C)
Put two 1/1 white Spirit creature tokens with flying onto the battlefield.
Common, white, clean, and instant. Pray is probably more iconic, but iconic is remade with every set printed.
Hmm, Safe Passage is kind of perfect for this cycle. With the single exception that it's 2W, not 1WW.
DeleteTricky territory, because to most of us Safe Passage seems essentially/iconically white... but MaRo's spoken out against Holy Day, right? Is there a difference between Holy Day and Safe Passage such that one isn't taking Fog out from under green?
DeleteOr is it possible that despite Fog being a neat design that flavorfully gives green some extra breadth, it's a relic of an earlier time and White really is the damage-prevention color, both mass and targeted?
How far do we trust the Head Designer of Magic, and how far do we trust common intuition/deliberation?
What about...?
DeletePrevention
1WW
instant
Prevent all damage that would be dealt this turn.
On the idea of whether or not rarity affects this (and to be fair, I'm sort of abolishing the idea of a perfect cycle) I feel that one of the most iconic red cards in existence is
ReplyDeleteChar
2R
Instant
Char deals 4 damage to target creature or player and 2 damage to you.
I know, I know, it's not 1CC and it's rare. I still feel if we're shooting for iconic spells this is absolutely the red one. Perhaps some 3 CMC cycle? Across rarities? Okay, I'm starting to doubt myself too.
Also, I really like Prevention right above this post. Although a name like Halt might be better
1RR - Control target permanent until end of turn.
ReplyDelete1GG - 4/4. (!!)
1WW - Gain 8 life.
So, when do we get the votes and additional discussion?
ReplyDeleteOn Monday, Havelock's challenge results will go up and one of the admins will read this. Expect a "here are my brief opinions, let's discuss X cycle" post from Jay on wednesday?
DeleteThis is Trevor's discussion so while I will likely weigh in, I'm not going to steal his thunder or assume authority here. (And thank goodness, because this is a really hard one!)
DeleteThanks Jay!
DeleteI would actually be happy for one of the admins to do a summary of the comments and either select some "finalists" or an alternate version of a "final draft" of the cycle which may or may not be inspired by my own final draft that I'll post next. This is your guys' site so if one of you wants to go ahead and summarize without me that cool but if you want to co-write some kind of summary I'd be up for that too.
Thanks everyone for all of your comments. This has been exactly the kind of thought provoking discussion I was hoping for. I wasn't necessarily expecting an "answer" but after letting this simmer for a while, I think there is one.
ReplyDeleteThere has been a lot of discussion as to what to keep and what to drop from the cycle. One thing I think has been staring us in the face but I didn't see it until I left it for a while and came back to it - that is that just "iconic and 1CC and instant" is too open-ended. There are just too many possibilities and no non-arbitrary way of choosing between them. However, there is one more commonality between Cancel and Murder that we have not explored (noticed?) - they are both removal. What? A counterspell isn't removal, but it is the closest thing blue has to removal - it's closer than bounce because it's really the only way blue can get a spell into your graveyard (it can get cards there with milling but those are just cards not spells).
So..... drawing from the above, I think we might just have the "iconic instant removal cycle" here.
Fight
1GG Instant
Target creature you control gets +2/+2 until end of turn and fights another target creature.
Equalize
1WW Instant
Tap target creature. Exile that creature if its owner controls more creatures than you do.
Ravage
1RR Instant
Destroy target land.
Murder
1BB Instant
Destroy target creature.
Cancel
1UU Instant
Counter target spell.
Fight and Equalize both do two things and neither feels eloquent enough for this cycle. Fight and Ravage would be better served as sorceries. Even as a sorcery, Ravage is too cheap for modern land destruction.
DeleteIt seems like the ideal rules text for this cycle is clear: Each color kills what it's best at killing:
White — Destroy target enchantment.
Blue — Counter target spell.
Black — Destroy target creature.
Red — Destroy target land.†
Green — Destroy target artifact.†
†It's probably not a good sign that it makes about as much sense to swap red and green's abilities.
The primary problem being that these effects have wildly different value. Cleanse and Smelt/Verdigris are each worth only one mana (and often not even that), where Cancel & Murder are worth three (at least). Even worse, Craterize isn't worth four, but can't be costed less than four without creating unfun gameplay.*
The other problem is that Cancel has to be an instant to work at all, but it's silly/misleading to make Craterize an instant.
I think we could make cards that are all 1CC Instants, but they're not going to feel like Cancel and Murder. Ultimately, there's nothing really iconic about the 1CC casting cost itself, so I'd be willing to give that up.
On the other hand, Erase is entirely forgettable. It seems that being a marginal effect can undo being unique and elegant. And that starts pushing us away from the "destroy something" model and back toward effects players care about. We can use Safe Passage or something like it for white, but I don't see how to get around making an iconic red spell without burn or an iconic green spell with creatures or pump, all of which involve numbers. The problem with numbers being that they feel "arbitrary."
So many factors!
In the all-removal version, we could also consider "Destroy target nonbasic land" for red and "Destroy target creature with flying" for green. The first works at 1RR, but the second would be strictly worse than Plummet. And it's still weird for LD to be an Instant, if we're sticking with that requirement.
DeleteAn interesting aspect of this discussion is that I think we are finding out why top down is more resonant than bottom up.
DeleteTry to design a cycle around a fixed mana cost and a card type and then wanting them to be super-resonant is very hard.
I bet we would have a much easier time designing cards that are as fundamental to colour identity as Cancel and Murder, common, and roughly equivalent power level but leaving everything else (mana cost and card type) wide open.
For red, a case could also be made for
ReplyDelete1RR Ignite
Instant
Do damage to target creature for each mountain you control.
but I didn't want all but Cancel to be about creatures and it would be strange for red's creature removal to be worse that green's in the same cycle, and I can't think of another way to do damage without picking an arbitrary number like 5 and that's just not iconic.
I also quite liked this non-creature suggestion for white:
1WW Exile target permanent. It's owner exiles target permanent you control.
But it wasn't as elegant or as iconic (white is all about the army and Equalize is the best way removal can reflect that, losing a permanent you control is the opposite of that).
Something along the lines of a backwards turn to slag might actually work nicely for red, basically detonate but without the X.
Delete1RR Destroy target artifact. If you do, deal damage to all players equal to its converted mana cost.