Cool Card Design of the Day5/7/2018 - I found the "force is with you" conversation from the last Weekend Art Challenge fascinating. I started exploring the Force N idea Moonfolklore posited, but found that it's just more natural to create effects that scale based on your force total, rather than converting that number we worked so hard to generate into a binary. I think that's got potential but not toward the end of enabling "the force is with you."
The other idea I was most excited to explore, formidable-meets-ascend, fared better.
Partly because there's such a wealth of fan art, and partly because I found the mechanic compelling, as well as supporting it, I went a bit overboard on designs:
Did a lot of work, and a great interpretation of the phrase "the force is with you". My onto problem is I'm not sure this plays differently enough from ascend, but it technically can due to power requirement. I'd be interetedto see if this can go a little lower, to make sure it's more possible for the details that make this play different from ascend more easily show. I'd probably try for Formidable's 8 first. Any reason you landed on 10? Aesthetic reasons? I like the idea that you can play multiple cretyres which is a play pattern similar to ascend, but if itslow enough also pump spells and high cmc drops can just turn it on late game as well which I find compelling as the biggedtgsmepla difference from ascend.
ReplyDeleteReasons I went with 10 power:
Delete• When you tell people '10' they remember it forever. Other numbers, they've got to check the cards a few times.
• Since it never turns off (like ascend and unlike formidable) it should be a bit harder to reach.
• To differentiate it from formidable, which got a poor reception because it felt too similar to ferocious.
• With ascend, you've got to have 10 cards on the field and it doesn't matter what they are. (They way to cheat is by making tokens.) With Jedi, you can reach your threshold with just a few cards if they're big enough. 10 ensures you work for it.
Playtesting may very well show 10 is just a bit too high and we need to make it 8. That said, I love that you can use Oppose the Dark Side or Sense a Disturbance to reach the threshold for just one turn (or Sith Persuasion just while the spell is resolving because your 3/3 is now a 6/0 and will die immediately after) and I suspect that makes 10 correct.
Seems like it'd require a lot of tuned playtesting to figure out what the right number is. I think that's the crux of this mechanic. I think the perfect spot is if the most reasonable highest power green common in the set can turn it on late game by itself. That's the kind of game play nuance I think makes this exciting. 8 power seemed more reasonable to see on 6-8 drop green common was my logic for suggesting retrying Formidable's number.
DeleteThe 10 being easier to remember is a good point and what I meant about aesthetic reasons-- 10 feels less arbitrary than 7 or 8 and looks cooler and bigger.
Well what's interesting is that the design of Ixalan pushed ascend to favor blue/white based on the value of their enchantments and the ability to create tokens cheaply.
DeleteIn this case, depending on how the whole set would come together, it can be implemented to favor the other three colors. You would to think about whether you want particular colors to be "better" at mastering the force and slightly stack the deck accordingly.
Chris Mooney asked on twitter, "Why does the force have to do with total power at all?"
ReplyDeleteMy response was "Because it's counting the life force / vitality of the Galaxy," and then I thought about counting toughness instead of power. While that's a bit unusual, I like it a lot because it allows you to play a deck full of pacifists (defenders with high toughness) and still attune yourself with the force. (It's also more distinct from formidable, which will be especially handy if we need to go back down to 8.)
I like the toughness version a lot, it definitely feels more force-y.
DeleteOn a different tack, youcould do something potentially too complex, but also maybe slick, if you define Light Side and Dark Side:
Jedi Trainee
1W
Creature - Human Rebel
~ has lifelink if you are attuned to the Light Side of the Force. (You are attuned to the Light Side if you control three creatures with greater toughness than power and aren’t attuned to the Dark Side.)
1/3
Sith Trainee
1B
Creature - Human Rogue
~ has menace if you are attuned to the Dark Side of the Force. (You are attuned to the Dark Side if you control three creatures with greater power than toughness and aren’t attuned to the Light Side.)
3/1
(Hoping the reminder text makes it clear if you are attuned to both you are attuned to neither, but could work on that working or give up on flavor and allow you to be attuned to both.)
It's tempting for there to be a light side and a dark side, but if that's a thing, it probably wants to count something different. Mechanically, this looks too hard to do in Limited. Thematically, it's also not that a critical aspect of the source material, since The Force is unaligned and whether we're using the Light Side or the Dark Side is more about our means and motives.
DeleteThis doesn’t feel right either but DFCs may help:
DeleteJedi Padawan
1W
Creature - Human Rogue
Lifelink
At the beginning of your end step, transform ~ if you control 3 or more creatures with greater power than toughness.
1/3
//
Sith Trainee
Creature - Human Rogue - Black
Menace
At the beginning of your end step, transform ~ if you control 3 or more creatures with greater toughness than power
3/1
I think Light Side/Dark Side trope resonates enough that we would be disappointing people if we didn’t represent it.
I was about to suggest toughness as well. It really fits the Jedi more. It also produces an interesting playstyle (IMO) if we make the "one with the Force" rewards often promote aggression or ending a game. That way there's a moment where they 'switch' from meditating / gathering power / etc. to fighting. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." That moment of building up peacefully, then ending a game decisively, feels very Jedi to me.
DeleteI also think 10 is a more natural number for Toughness than Power. Toughness not only tends higher than Power for a given cost, creatures with higher Toughness also stay on board longer than creatures with higher Power generally.
Some quick designs:
Makashi Duelist {3}{G}
Creature - Human Knight
Reach
As long as the Force is with you, Makashi Duelist has vigilance and must be blocked if able. (When you control creatures with total toughness 10 or more, the Force is with you for the rest of the game.)
2/4
Ataru Striker {1}{R}
Creature - Human Warrior
{T}: Ataru Stiker deals 1 damage to each opponent. If the Force is with you, deal 1 damage to any target instead. (When you control creatures with total toughness 10 or more, the Force is with you for the rest of the game.)
0/4
Shien Expert {2}{W}
Creature - Human Knight
Lifelink
As long as the Force is with you, Shien Expert gets +2/+0. (When you control creatures with total toughness 10 or more, the Force is with you for the rest of the game.)
1/3
Niman Disciple {U}
Creature - Human Mystic
Prowess
As long as the Force is with you, Niman Disciple has flying. (When you control creatures with total toughness 10 or more, the Force is with you for the rest of the game.)
0/3
Juyo Pragmatist {2}{B}
Creature - Human Rogue
As long as the Force is with you, Juyo Pragmatist has menace and deathtouch. (When you control creatures with total toughness 10 or more, the Force is with you for the rest of the game.)
2/3
Yeah, toughness seems more interesting than power (although you'd need to check it plays ok, too much stalling is usually undesirable in a mechanic).
DeleteI think that your argument that the Force is always there independently of your alignment is solid, but then could there be a mechanical motivation to align yourself with one side? From a gameplay point of view, I could choose the best cards from Sith and Jedi and play them together, if they help me get the Force easier. This reminds me a bit of the Energy mechanic.
DeleteI feel that having both a Dark Side that focuses on Power and a light side that focuses on Toughness would not be unthinkable. After all, almost no Force users are completely neutral.
I'm glad this spawned such a neat discussion. I love the renders you posted. I will admit, I just really liked the idea of using the phrase "the Force is with you" and went from there. What I ended up with was a bit half-baked. But, there are so many possible mechanics to represent the concept of the Force, that I think it poses a really neat challenge for someone who wanted to make a Star Wars custom set. The conversation actually inspired me to go back and listen to Maro's podcast on the Star Wars TCG. Definitely recommend it to anyone who's interested.
ReplyDeleteThinking further on my different force counters idea, I'm not sure I do want light/dark mechanic (you could just have the spells in different colours with the same force mechanic, which is more like the jedi anyway, I think it was more about what they wanted to do than two different forces), but if I did, you could do something like:
ReplyDeleteAll force spells start with you gaining one (or more?) force counter. A light force counter or a dark force counter for light/dark spells, and light spells count the number of light force counters, dark side count the number of dark force counters, and unaligned spells (probably about half? lots of force powers are for either) count both.
Should light and dark counters obliterate each other like +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters?
DeleteAlso, could we just use +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters?
Huh. Maybe!
DeleteIt's a little weird to have to count two separate totals (going "do I have enough powerr? Add it, no, okay, how about toughness now?), but do you think it's still possible to counters power OR toughness? I kind of like that it makes a duality just like the force, and it's appealing from a design perspective to think about how something like maybe "Sith" red card would be different in design romance a "Jedi" red card if we say Jedi cards tend toward higher toughness and Sith towards higher power.
ReplyDeleteI'd playtest that. My intuition is we want to just choose one, but it sure worked for evolve.
DeleteI think what was interesting about the challenge is that so many of us looked at Star Wars, separately saw concepts of commitment/loyalty as important as a top-down design philosophy, and iterated ideas in that space in mechanically different ways.
ReplyDeleteOT: MaRo just tweeted out that the GDS3 shows are coming starting next week. Two episodes per week! Looking forward to seeing y'all.
Finally. At one point I was thinking GDS3 was actually an April Fool's joke.
DeleteMost complicated focus group survey ever devised.
DeleteRetrofitting Counting Mechanics with the Ascend Template is neat! Here are a few things Magic counts:
ReplyDeleteGraveyards (threshold)
Card types (affinity/metal craft)
Total Power
Toughness
Hand Size
Permanents
Devotion
Life total
Ascending in Devotion could be interesting as long as you don't mind a Red Side of the force in addition to the traditional light and dark.
This I a useful list to keep in mind! Important to note both ascend and this mechanic use the templating they use because they use because the things they track can shift wildly and take time to build up, making it something that is both hard to get to and to maintain. Something like a graveyard count probably isn't necessary to template like ascend with a permanent status and reminder card.
Delete