Weekend Art Challenge
Click through to see this weekend's art and the design requirements for your single card submission, due Monday morning. Every submission warrants feedback, which I will try to provide, and which everyone is welcome to provide as well.
If you choose, you may use that feedback to revise your submission any number of times. I will post and review the most recent submission from each designer some time on Monday, life permitting. To help ensure I recreate your design accurately, please use CARDNAME instead of ~ in your submissions.
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| svblackvicky |
Design a common or uncommon illustrating a mechanic for a water world that changes how combat plays out and is thematic to the underwater and/or maritime setting. Use one of these pieces of art, specifying the artist. Keep in mind that this set will need white, black, red and green cards that fit the setting, and that sometimes colors bleed for that reason.
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| Netarliargus |
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| Fran-Hdez |
Octangler 1U
ReplyDeleteArt: Fran-Hdez
Creature - Octopus (C)
W, T: Tap target creature
0/3
I love the use of the color pie here-- tappers are white, but blue often gets access to similar effects. Now I really want to make cards that continue the cycle (e.g. a common Tim that costs 2U to cast and R, T to activate).
DeletePurely for the sake of argument:
DeleteCould this be mono-blue or mono-white?
I'm not against making Octopi mono-white for an undersea block - they seem to fit well with a lot of white's common mechanics. You can imagine an octopus flavorly fitting tapping, vigilance, or "blocks multiple creatures" without any trouble.
DeleteAgreed. Really the biggest problem with waterworld as a setting is that it feels so viscerally off to put ANY sea creature in non-blue colors. If we do it we're sacrificing that anyway, so white Octopi is a good call.
DeleteIm ok making this
DeleteOctangler 1W
Art: Fran-Hdez
Creature - Octopus (C)
W, T: Tap target creature
0/3
Can you clarify what Sephagoria is? I read through the links and they all include scant contradictory explanations such as "it is an enchantment matters block" or "it is a top down Arthurian legend block". Also, the most recent post I saw was from two years ago.
ReplyDeleteCould we get a smidgen more guidance (or maybe a link to the creative description of Sephorgia that you consider canon?)
I second this.
DeleteFor the purposes of this challenge, Sephorgia is Water World Magic. That prominently includes underwater civilizations, and maybe pirates.
DeleteAnd by 'Sephorgia' I mean, "My Google-fu failed me hard and I found the wrong world submission." What was the water world called?
Delete(Updating Post)
The High Seas world we had worked on I believe was Seas of Higaro. Jules' endeavors on Gathering Magic were "Clewug". I don't know that this Water World is quite like either, as one was set entirely above the waves, and the other entirely beneath them, but the names are pretty easy to mix up.
DeleteThank you! I felt like I was going insane somehow!
DeleteMy submission as one of the 101 in GDS2 was Water World, named Abissa.
DeleteYeah, Sephorgia was my "enchantment-matters" block that never took off. Seas of Higaro was the water-world in that design exercise/contest.
DeleteSeas of Higaro! Thanks. Were there two?
DeleteCornered Prey G
ReplyDeleteInstant
Target blocking creature fights target attacking creature
Art: Fran-Hdez
I'm not sure if being able to make an opponents creatures fight something of yours is fair at G, so bumping it up to 1G or making the text "target blocking creature you control" would be fine.
If Prey Upon can cost G, I'm pretty sure this can, especially since it (usually) can't kill mana Elves and the like. Nice design!
DeleteDefinitely not too powerful. I do worry that it might confuse players.
DeleteBetween the similarities to Righteous Blow and the fact that happening in combat makes this feel like Firstest Strike, I think this could be a {gw} hybrid card in a set that uses them.
DeleteTo clarify, I think new players will be confused whether the fight preempts the normal damage step, or the assignment of blockers altogether.
DeleteSea Dragon 3RR
ReplyDeleteCreature- Dragon (Uncommon)
3/3
Aquatic (This creature can't be blocked except by creatures with aquatic or flying.)
R: CARDNAME gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
Creatures with reach can't block it?
DeleteFirebreathing hurts my Vorthos on an aquatic creature.
I also don't get the flavor here: not everything that flies can dive.
DeleteCould creatures with Islandwalk block it?
DeleteLightningbreathing. Lightning is red, a number of aquatic creatures use electricity to shock their prey.
DeleteSo many flavor questions! :-)
DeleteWe'd have to assume that 'aquatic' is something unique to this block. For example, maybe it represents creatures that have specifically adapted to a Water World. On such a world, the main way to get around (i.e. attack) would be in the water, though maybe only on the surface. Creatures with flying could block creatures that move this way for the most part, but creatures stuck on land couldn't (including those with reach). Unfortunately, islandwalk doesn't qualify: one could argue it has more to do with being stealthy in the water and less to do with moving about freely in the open ocean.
I also want to make a plug for this design on a mechanical level. Depending on how the environment is set up, this will be sort of a 'half-flying', which opens up some interesting Limited design possibilities. In larger Constructed formats, on the other hand, the power level go up slightly because there will be fewer Aquatic creatures around to block this, meaning that it will be less necessary to 'push' Aquatic creatures for Constructed.
And as to firebreathing-- yes, it could be re-flavored as any number of things in a Water World, from superheated water to electricity to just a powerful strike. See also: Talons of Falkenrath from Innistrad block.
DeleteEasy to see that reach creatures shouldn't be able to block aquatic creatures. More arguable, but I still agree that islandwalk creatures also shouldn't be able to block them.
DeleteWhat I really like about aquatic is how its (mostly) worse than flying. I do have problems with it making all flying creatures ever waterproof just by playing in the same Commander game with them.
R:+1/+0 can certainly represent things other than firebreathing, but that's the default, and we need some flavor queue to believe anything else. Since the art isn't doing it here, I'd expect something in the name or flavor text to explain that it's lightning breath or whatever.
Superseded fully by your submission, but for reference, here's a card I designed when I pushed this challenge up:
Sea Dragon 3RR
Creature-Dragon (unc)
Flying
U: Sea Dragon loses flying and gains swimming until end of turn. (Sea Dragon can’t be blocked by creatures with flying.)
4/4
Count me convinced on the matter of firebreathing. I'm thinking I'll replace it with "1: CARDNAME gets +1/-1 until end of turn" which has precedent in both red and blue.
DeleteI'm really not seeing the benefit of Flying 4.0. I do like that at least this interacts with an existing mechanic (instead of creating a lot of cube cards like Shadow and Horsemanship did), but mechanically, as I see it, the only difference between this and flying is reach creature and cards like Plummet. Am I missing something?
DeleteOh, I see, Aquatic is a little worse than flying in that aquatic creatures can't block creatures with flying. That still doesn't seem like enough to me.
DeleteTo confirm, final submission:
DeleteSea Dragon 3RR
Creature- Dragon (Uncommon)
3/3
Aquatic (This creature can't be blocked except by creatures with aquatic or flying.)
1: CARDNAME gets +1/-1 until end of turn.
Art: Netarliargus
Drowner Octopus 2U
ReplyDelete[Fran-Hdez]
Creature-Octopus (C)
Entangle (Whenever CARDNAME deals damage to a creature, tap this and it. That creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step as long as this remains tapped. You may choose not to untap this during your untap step.)
1/3
I love that card, but I have to wonder how many we could put Entangle on.
DeleteYeah, your creature needing to survive combat certainly puts some hefty restrictions on design. I guess it could act a bit more like deathtouch and be:
DeleteEntangle (Whenever CARDNAME blocks or becomes blocked by a creature, you may tap them both and remove them from combat. That creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step as long as this remains tapped. You may choose not to untap this during your untap step.)
We could also get rid of the optionality in the trigger so that any blocker can blank an entangler. But regardless it's probably undevelopable because any entangler could act as a Fog Bank.
So, iteration number three:
Drowner Octopus 2W
[Fran-Hdez]
Creature-Octopus (C)
Entangle (Whenever CARDNAME becomes blocked, you may tap all creatures blocking it and remove them from combat. If you do, they don't untap during their controllers' untap steps as long as this remains tapped. You may choose not to untap this during your untap step.)
2/2
That's a doozy of a keyword. How critical is that "remains tapped" stuff over, say, Frost Breath?
DeleteAlternatively, how critical is the combat component of this? Entangle could be white's Fight-
DeleteClam Up W
Sorcery
Target creature you control entangles target creature you don't control. (Tap both creatures. Each creature does not untap during untap steps as long as the other remains tapped.)
Both Clammed Up creatures remain permanently tapped unless someone Twiddles or removes one.
DeleteIt does sound a little strange, but that's actually not such a bad place to be mechanically. You can think of it as a Bone Shards that does Claustrophobia instead of Murder, and I like the idea that you could use a removal spell to get your own creature back.
DeleteOn the other hand, since "entangling" is something that one creature does to another (it's not symmetrical like "fight"), it's straightforward (though cumbersome) to update the reminder text:
(Tap both creatures. You may choose not to untap the entangling creature during your untap step. As long as it remains tapped, the entangled creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step.)
I thought it might be better, being permanent - or, at least until one of the creatures is untapped/removed, (and every color has access to one or the other in this era). Like Ipaulsen said, it's kind of Bone Shards, but it's kind of Prey Upon - your creature may be out of the game, or it may not. This feels very white, to me, as an answer with answers, and I'm pretty sure there's some space to play around in (especially if the text is short and you don't have to continually re-evaluate whether or not to untap your creature). Sorry to tangent in the middle of your thread, Jules, but -
DeleteEntangler Octopus 2W
When CARDNAME becomes blocked by a single creature, CARDNAME entangles that creature. (Tap both creatures. Each creature does not untap during untap steps as long as the other remains tapped.)
Could have "and remove them from combat", maybe.
Clam Up W
DeleteAura
Enchanted creature has "T: Tap target creature"
Now there's a card that needs to see print at some point!
DeleteI ran out of time to stay on top of the challenge this weekend, but lots of great discussion! I've concluded that none of these are ideal block mechanics because we don't want enough Bone Splinters and/or deathtouchers in a set to warrant a non-evergreen keyword. New submission:
DeleteDrowner Octopus 2W
[Fran-Hdez]
Creature-Octopus (C)
Disable (Whenever CARDNAME deals damage to a creature, tap that creature. It deals damage to creatures in the form of stun counters. If a creature with a stun counter on it would untap, remove a stun counter from it instead.)
2/2
Imagine this card:
ReplyDeleteFishy Guy
Creature - Fish Guy
Below (This creature can't be blocked by creatures with flying.)
2/2
It's another flying, but it's not just "shadow" or "horsemanship" - it allows you to divide creatures into three strata, those above the waves, those on the surface/shallows, and those beneath. That leads me to my svblackvicky card:
Emerald Diver 1U
Creature - Drake
Flying
G: CARDNAME loses flying and gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
1/1
I assume this ability is supposed to have Rootwalla text? As for the premise, I'm not convinced that the ability will be relevant frequently enough to warrant it's existence: most fliers end up on the offensive except in the direst of circumstances.
DeleteYes! I was toying with "losing flying" as part of the cost, and when I moved it back into the effect (where it really does look better) I forgot to re-add the Rootwalla clause.
DeleteAs for Below, it's true that fliers are often on the offensive, but I imagine you could make an environment where fliers, non-fliers, and Below creatures all are relevant against one another. It's not /exactly/ rock-paper-scissors, but I can't help feeling there's /something/ there.
I REALLY like this idea. It communicates very clearly and very simply the idea of underwater creatures. My one concern with it is the concern that's been plaguing the game for a while: I'm sure this would go on blue creatures, and blue really doesn't need any more evasion mechanics. It's also interesting that historically this ability has been red/green, and now it works blue.
DeleteTunneling / Swimming / Below really seems like a reasonable place to go. I would hope R&D has playtested it at some point, but I'm betting no one else has, and that might reveal why it hasn't been done yet. Alternately, it could have escaped them, or the right time just hasn't come yet.
DeleteI'm only seeing this ability historically in red, but it's easy to imagine it in green once it's keyworded.
I like Emerald Diver (we had one in M13 at some point), but note that losing flying is irrelevant because you can activate after blockers are declared. And it's awkward for the challenge that the card submitted doesn't mention the mechanic suggested.
I was thinking of Bower Passage: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=278255 (how do you do the fancy link?)
DeleteYou could go old school and say "You may only activate this ability before blockers are declared", though I imagine it's not worth the text. There are other ways to fix it if it's really an issue, but none of them are common. I wouldn't be too worried about it.
Desecration Demon to the rescue?!
Delete"At the beginning of each combat, you may pay G. If you do, CARDNAME gets +2/+2 and loses flying until end of turn."
That Emerald Diver is probably the best version, but I'm going to scrap it, to try and show Below on a straightforward, simple, card. Or, at least, as close as I can come across these arts.
DeleteDraconic Depthskite 4RR
Creature - Dragon
Haste
Below (This creature can't be blocked by creatures with flying.)
4/4
This doesn't show anything special about Below, but not every card has to be too cute. On the other hand, though, it also might not be sufficiently Dragon-ic – Volcanic Dragon, I think, isn't enough of a reference point. As for Below, I would definitely keep this out of blue - probably GRb.
Art - Netarliargus, cropped so the surface isn't visible on the top of the card.
DeleteBathys Drake 1UU (Common) (Netarliargus)
ReplyDeleteFlying
Submerge 1U (Exile this under an untapped land you control. When that land becomes tapped, return this to the battlefield.)
2/2
For flavor reasons the lands in this world would all be underwater (Kelp Forests, Hyrdothermal Vent Mountains, Seafloor Plains and Benthic Swamps)
Higher rarities would have effects that trigger upon submerging or emerging.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteMana Vents 2U (Uncommon)
DeleteEnchantment
Whenever a creature you control enters the battlefield from underneath a land, draw a card.
Scalding Seas XRR (Uncommon)
Sorcery
Tap X target lands. Until end of turn, whenever a creature enters the battlefield, CARDNAME deals X damage to it.
This is pretty cool, but I'm worried that having a bunch of creatures able to submerge at a moments notice Iis going to lead to a lot of board complexity. Is there a trigger that will make for better timing? Perhaps "Whenever CARDNAME becomes the target of a spell or ability, you may pay [COST]. If you do..." as a sort of pseudo-hexproof
DeleteWouldn't that just... never trigger? I mean, you wouldn't want to counter your own spells and your opponents wouldn't want to cast anything.
DeleteNot to say I don't agree with you. Perhaps if it were harder to get your creature back...?
Submerge 1U (If this creature isn't exiled, exile it under a land you control. If it is exiled, return it to the battlefield.)
DeleteOr you could do a cycle of non-basics with a super-type like Aquatic and have Submerge read:
DeleteSubmerge 1U (Exile this underneath an Aquatic land you control. When that land becomes tapped, return it to the battlefield.)
I'm not a big fan of the super-type solution. It makes the mechanic much more parasitic and doesn't solve the issue you pointed out. Anyway, I realized that the other part of the text I'd intended wasn't there originally and I left out, but now I realize the implementation I had in mind wouldn't even need the busywork. What about:
DeleteSubmerge (Whenever CARDNAME becomes the target of a spell or ability, you may pay [COST]. If you do, return it to your hand.)
Now their targeted spells are still worth casting, they're just less effective. You lose some land flavor, but I think it'll make for better gameplay when there's a real cost to getting it back and this version avoids a lot of the board complexity issues of the version with one cost to blink in or out.
All five basic lands will be played in Water World Limited, right? I would imagine that, like other worlds, each will just get art that depicts the nature of that land in this world. Plains would likely be the flat sea floor, with seaweed growing; Swamps would be murky waters; Mountains could be the trenches; and Forests coral reefs. If so, there's no need to call out Islands or Aquatic lands for any mechanics.
DeleteI like this proposal best: Submerge 1U (If this creature isn't exiled, exile it under a land you control. If it is exiled, return it to the battlefield.)
But a block full of Blinking Spirits does sound troublesome. What about "put in on top of your library" so there's a real cost to saving your creature over and over?
Bathys Drake 2U (C)
DeleteCreature - Drake
Flying
Submerge U (Exile this under target land. Any time you would draw a card, you may instead put this onto the battlefield.)
Thoughts?
Is it worth mentioning the land, on the off-chance it gets Stone Rain'd before your turn?
DeleteI do like that re-emerging has a real cost.
DeleteNot that this has anything to do with this challenge, but what does everyone think of using the word "emerge" for "enters the battlefield" like "dies" for "put into a graveyard from the battlefield"?
Delete"When Aether Adept emerges, return target creature to its owner's hand."
"When Acidic Slime emerges, destroy target artifact, enchantment, or land."
"Whenever a creature emerges under your control, put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control."
"Creatures emerging don't cause abilities to trigger."
It's the best one I've heard so far. Just food for thought.
Having something to mean "enters the battlefield" would indeed be nice, but "emerges" is probably not that thing-- it's a bit too strange and narrow flavor-wise. If I had to pick something I'd go with "is summoned" as that squares better with Magic history and flavor. Keep in mind, though, that no matter what gets used, it'll save less space than using "dies" to replace "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield" does.
DeleteTons of blinking spirits worries me too. Not sure if players would want to do this, but submerging cards could go to the bottom of your deck instead. It takes other cards that mess with the bottom of your deck to make it worth it though, which might not be worth it.
DeleteDiving Drake 1UU
Creature - Drake
Flying
Submerge (If this would die, put it on the bottom of your library instead)
2/2
Divining Rod 2U
Sorcery
Draw two cards from the top or bottom of your library.
I like Bathys Drake a lot. I assume you pay the cost when it exiles itself, not when it comes back? Putting the land on top of your library is another option, but I think I like replacing a draw slightly more.
DeleteAs a mechanic somewhere in between Regeneration and Blinking, what colors could we put Submerge into?
"Arrives?"
DeleteI also kind of wanted submerged things to go to the bottom of your library, but I'm not sure I'd want to do what you'd need to do to make players care.
The 'under a land' rider is there to inspire support cards and give the ability more flavor. Also, if a creature just exiles itself, it feels exclusively white/blue, but if they are hiding under a land somewhere I could imagine it in every color.
DeleteI suppose the correct templating would be:
Bathys Drake 2U (C)
Creature - Drake
Flying
Submerge U (U: Exile this under target land. Any time you would draw a card, you may instead put this onto the battlefield.)
Mechanic making up a vertical cycle of blue creatures:
ReplyDeleteLurking Octupus 2UU
[Fran-Hdez]
Creature - Octupus (U)
Flash
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, target creature loses all abilities until end of turn.
3/3
The common in the cycle would be a 1/1, cheaper, maybe lose flash and feature the merfolk that the octopus is taking down in the uncommon taking down a pirate or something.
This is neat, but doesn't work in the rules, because of Charactheristic Defining Abilities existence.
Deletequiz question!
Deletewhat is tarmogyf's power and toughness when you target it with this? are there rules to cover this situation? what is the situation where this might occur in real magic?
They pair this ability with "is 0/1" or "is 1/1" to avoid that problem. With or without, I'm not sure we need a v/cycle of these.
DeleteGood call on the CDAs. If we make it set the target creature at 1/1, how much more does it need to cost? Is 3UU too good for this?
Delete@Jay: Maybe not, but it could easily be a mechanical hook in a block involving underwater creatures and pirates. Could also be a mini-vertical cycle a la Keepsake Gorgon and Hythonia the Cruel.
You could effectively get "destroy target attacking creature" if you make this an X/1 with flash and Turn to Frog. Upside being when you can block that 1/1 with a 2/2 and keep your X/1.
Delete"Target creature's power becomes equal to its power and its toughness becomes equal to its toughness until end of turn. Then that creature loses all abilities until end of turn."
DeleteSometimes magic templating makes me nuts.
That's the most incredible templating hack I've ever seen. But given that this kind of thing has never been done before, you might as well make up a new template.
Delete"Target creature loses all abilities until end of turn. Its power and toughness remain the same."
"Traget creature loses all abilities other than characteristic defining abilities until end of turn" will yank us firmly out of NWO templating for common. Possibly as taboo as mentioning the stack.
DeleteAbsurd as it reads, my final submission:
DeleteLurking Octupus 2UU
[Fran-Hdez]
Creature - Octupus (U)
Flash
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, target creature's power becomes equal to its power and its toughness becomes equal to its toughness until end of turn. Then that creature loses all abilities until end of turn."
3/3
No vertical cycle here, just an unwillingness to kill your darlings.
surprisingly this is actually handled in the rules! (the original version) however without characteristic defining abilities it's p/t revert to what it would be without input. so tarmogyf becomes a 0/1 but magnivore becomes a 0/0. this is relevant with the only card in the game that removes abilities without giving p/t: Yixlid Jailer.
DeleteYou no like "Target creature loses all abilities until end of turn but its power and toughness remain the same."?
DeleteI can see people thinking Lurking Octopus's P/T is the one that's being referenced with that template.
Delete@TehWERR: That's awesome. So technically it does work as is?
DeleteAll the same, if people are comfortable with lpaulsen's proposed templating (which I like, but I'm not sure how much Tabak would appreciate) we can stick with that.
Final, final version:
Lurking Octupus 3UU
[Fran-Hdez]
Creature - Octupus (U)
Flash
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, target creature loses all abilities until end of turn but its power and toughness remain the same.
3/3
Entangling Octopus [4U]
ReplyDeleteCreature — Octopus (common)
Submerged (This creature can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control unless it's attacking or blocking.)
1UU, T: Target permanent doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
2/6
illus. Fran-Hdez
Basically, keywording Tromokratis as a replacement for Hexproof.
Or,
Entangling Octopus [2U]
Creature — Octopus
Tangletouch (When this damages a creature, that creature is tapped and doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
1/3
Basically, trying to think of a water (therefore blue) themed combat keyword that isn't evasion. Water-world would seem to slow down combat and give things places to hide.
I like both of these ideas. With Submerged, of course, you have to find a way to make the ability matter (which your card does well). I don't think it can / should be a complete replacement for Hexproof, though, especially given the flavor. My concern with Tangletouch would be that it's narrow mechanically and flavorfully, and that it only makes sense in blue (which will already be overloaded with design material in this set).
DeleteI'm not personally a fan of Tromokratis' version of hexproof, but it's certainly more interactive, so that's a plus.
DeleteThe only reason I imagine tangletouch isn't already a keyword is that they don't want to make it evergreen, but they want to use the ability in core sets. Or something.
Lurking Octopus 2G
ReplyDeleteArt: Fran-Hdez
Creature - Octopus
Tidal 2 (At the beginning of your upkeep, if this has any +1/+1 counters on it, remove them all. Otherwise, put two +1/+1 counters on it)
2/2
Homarid as a mechanic? That's pretty daring, but I like this implementation. Could do very good things for Limited.
DeleteThis is, to be fair, much much simpler than Homarids.
DeleteYes, that's true. The weirdness of Homarids might provoke a negative gut reaction (from whatever players remember / know of them), but this actually seems like a very nice and clean mechanic. My main worry at this point is whether tidal triggers will create memory issues.
DeleteWould it be easier if, instead, it was a Landfall trigger? That way we still get the feeling of tides going in and out, but we control that as the player.
DeleteMy only fear, with cards like this, is that it would lead to people playing wrong when their 4/4 got chumped by a bear and then they played a land.
A homarid callback would be lovely for a water block, and this is relatively much simpler. Hmm.
DeleteI like Tidal. That might be a lot of fun to play with.
DeleteAlso note, the OP's version of tidal works well with -1/-1 counters as well, leading to a different sort of gameplay that might be a bit more dynamic. Instead of playing a creature that can't block, it getting big, and presumably attacking, you first get a creature big enough to block, then it is tiny for a turn, and then it can attack.
DeleteEither way plays very well with combat tricks for blockers, since leaving back your 2/2 that will be a 4/4 next turn won't raise any suspicions.
Oh, I forgot to mention. One thing I don't like about this mechanic is that (unlike the werewolf mechanic) there is nothing that will get your cards to end up in the same tide, so some cards will be gaining counters and others losing them, which feels unthematic.
DeleteGood point. Maybe, "If there are +1/+1 counters on any creatures you control with Tidal, remove them all. Otherwise, put N +1/+1 counters on ~"? That adds a layer of trying to time your tidal creatures for the earliest benefit, but that might not actually be fun.
DeleteYeah my biggest concern with Tidal is that it's not global and you have to fiddle with the cards individually. I think Jay's wording is a good place to start.
DeleteFinal entry?
DeleteLurking Octopus 2G
DeleteArt: Fran-Hdez
Creature - Octopus
Tidal 2 (At the beginning of your upkeep, if there are +1/+1 counters on any creatures you control with Tidal, remove them all. Otherwise, put two +1/+1 counters on this.)
2/2
Seabed Cephalopod (Common)
ReplyDelete3U
Creature - Octopus
2/3
Depth 2 (A player can’t target this with a spell or ability or block it with a creature unless that player pays 2.)
Eight arms to hold you.
Illus: Fran-Hdez
NOTE: Depth is not cumulative like Bushido. It represents depths of the ocean. Depth 1 would be close to the surface, depth 2 the sea floor, and a few cards with depth 3 are trench dwellers.
To what colors would you give Depth?
DeleteI suggest removing the blocking portion of this and making it into conditional hexproof using the Frost Titan template. That's cleaner and makes more sense from a creative standpoint.
DeleteI'm leaning towards Blue, Red, Green, but with a small splash (no pun intended) in White and Black. Similar to how Monstrosity was distributed unevenly in all 5 colors.
DeleteI would rather remove the Frost Titan side of the effect than the evasion side. I love the simple taxing mechanic to interact with these creatures and picture a tempo-rich limited format. Unlike other forms of evasion these can be interacted with in combat, but you'll need to decide if you want to save that mana to get into combat.
Flavorfully, this is you spending colorless mana to give your creature a bubble or temporary gills, or a mossy breathmask or whatever so it can dive down and block a creature attacking from the depths. That was also the thought with the target taxing. You need to spend a bit of magic to locate and lock-on to the undersea beast.
I'm not convinced this mechanic really wants a variable, it probably wants to be fixed (probably at 2). Otherwise board states start requiring a lot of mental math. If you have a Depth 1, Depth 2, and Depth 3, and I leave up 3 mana, and you attack, what are your options? What will my options be?
DeleteI definitely support hacking off the hexproof rider.
This mechanic is going to absolutely destroy low and medium skill players. They will look at the Depth 2 guy who is a 2/2, and look at their 2/3 gal, and realize that they can leave her back to block the 2/2 as long as they don't play anything. Then the opponent will not attack, will play out another threat, and this will repeat itself until the the low/medium skill player drowns in threats. One solution to this is to put an above average amount of flash in the format, so you can leave up mana but then still play stuff at the end of the turn.
The behavior I expect this will encourage in experienced players is to make nearly every game a race and treat these creatures as unblockable unless they happen to have the mana left over.
This is a very interesting design, though, and I love that it is an inherently interactive form of evasion. At a minimum, though, I think that it will warp the development of the entire set around it (and that is not necessarily a bad thing).
Depth definitely has potential. We'd want to test a lot and fit the environment to work with all these extra potential costs, but that's exactly what I asked for.
DeleteI'm not convinced "depth doesn't stack." As written, it surely does, and I'm not sure how to word it so it doesn't.
Tommy, I like your analysis on how new and experienced players would approach these cards. There's also a case to be made, I don't know if you're right, but it would be fun to test the mechanic out and see.
DeleteI think I want to try and keep the Frost Titan taxing effect along withe the taxing evasion. First, keeping both gives the mechanic a simple and groakable concept - your opponent must pay to interact with this creature. It covers all types of interaction equally. Second, this is mechanical bleed for some colors, so having both halves of the effect help legitimize it in colors where it might seem a flagrant break. For example, Green doesn't typically get evasion, but it does get hexproof style effects, Black doesn't get a targeting tax, but it does get limited evasion, like Shadow and Intimidate.
Jay, here's an attempt to make the depth level not stackable.
Seabed Cephalopod (Common)
3U
Creature - Octopus
2/3
Seabed Cephalopod is at depth 2. (A player can’t target this with a spell or ability, or block it with a creature unless that player pays 2.)
Eight arms to hold you.
Illus: Fran-Hdez
This would also let us do things like:
"All creatures are at Depth 1 until end of turn." and
"0: Diving Drake loses flying until end of turn and is at depth 2 until end of turn."
As a wording guideline, Shrouded Serpant from Prophecy basically has the evasion version of Depth (without the hexproof rider).
Delete"Whenever Shrouded Serpent attacks, defending player may pay 4. If he or she doesn't, Shrouded Serpent can't be blocked this turn."
Yeah, I don't care about proper wording when I can have something concise. WotC seems more willing to rearrange reminder text with some flexibilty. If it wasn't a keyword and existed solely as rules text, I would copy Shrouded Serpent's rules structure.
DeleteWorks for me. We might discover this is a big deal to implement in Magic Online because now every creature ever has a depth (most 0). I would happily playtest this.
DeleteMurky Tangler {2}{2U}{G}
ReplyDeleteOctopus
Hunt (When this attacks, you may have target tapped creature defending player controls block it as if it weren’t tapped.)
2/5
or the imminently simpler, but less contentious
Murky Tangler {3}{G}
Octopus
Provoke
2/4
Blarg. I hate the hybrid cost; it's just confusing for no real reason. Hated the other versions in Alara Reborn too. I don't get why Hunt isn't just a reprint of Provoke. Is Hunt somehow an improvement?
DeleteBoth are mostly just different to be different (with an eye toward the theme), which is why I finished with the second version.
DeleteIf we're using {2/U} hybrid, might as well go deep. I could see a set where 50% of the non-blue cards have all of their colorless mana requirements replaced with {2/U}. Even Murky Tangler I would want to make {2/U}{2/U}{G}. Then throw in some activated abilities on creatures using {2/U}. In that kind of set, I could see players including Islands or U/X duals in their non-blue decks, just to accelerate their twobrid cards. Then, the ubiquity of islands and blue cards lets you make cards like this:
DeleteHarpooner 1W
Creature - Human Archer
Whenever ~ blocks or becomes blocked by a Blue creature, ~ gains first strike until end of turn.
2/2
Admittedly, it would be a big gimmick. Maro has said that Torment was a huge success, but has also put Torment's color imbalance at a 9 on the storm scale. This use of blue twobrid is similar, but might be able to avoid imbalancing Limited the way Torment did.
That's pretty much exactly what version 1 was suggesting. I expect it would be too hard to balance, or that even if it were balanced from a Limited and Constructed perspective, many players would read it as imbalanced regardless.
DeleteMurky Tangler #2 is better on two counts: (1) uses the established mechanic rather than the slight yet weird variation on it, and (2) doesn't incorporate super-confusing twobrid costs. I get that blue twobrid is a way to say "water creature", but it's just too strange to be worth it.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the confirmation.
DeleteOne thing that underwater suggests for humans is slowed, difficult movement; I see a lot of that here, and I do worry a bit if that's a good goal. (Video game water levels are a good case example.)
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I see pretty much the same amount of mystery, which I do personally like in MtG.
It's been over 15 years, and I still get angry at Ocarina's water temple.
DeleteIs there a reason why humans, Kithkin, elves, and vampires wouldn't be able to be aquatic adapted (fins, gills, etc.) without going so far as to just be considered merfolk? All the creatures on Mirrodin had metal features on their bodies, but they weren't default artifact creatures.
Actually that's a good point. Keep in mind also that even clearly aquatic creatures like the Tritons of Theros are easily showable on land. Why not the other way around?
DeleteAlso, one complaint I do recall Maro (or someone) talking about is that art with creatures floating underwater occasionally looks like they're flying which can be a problem.
I have no trouble imagining elves with gills, vampires laughing off the lack of air, and other humanoids using tiny spells or baubles to survive on the ocean floor.
DeleteI don't see why Water World has to be primarily underwater. I think it could equally well take place on an archipelago and the surrounding oceans. I think the art and creative set will be much more interesting if some of the stuff is underwater (30% maybe?) and the rest is above.
DeleteUnderwater zombies could be incredible.
DeleteNothing wrong with islands or ships on Water World.
DeleteThe Vorthos in me feels like making water another form of evasion is a mistake. The game has had flying for 20 years, during which time there have been plenty of seagoing creatures depicted in art - for these creatures to simply not be counted by the game as being water-dwelling feels wrong.
ReplyDeleteFran-Hdez artwork:
Merfolk Tidehunter (common)
1W
Creature - Merfolk Warrior
Seaworthy (Whenever this creature attacks, each creature with seaworthy gets +1/+0 until end of turn and each creature without seaworthy gets -1/-0 until end of turn.)
2/1
This feels more Vorthos-acceptable to me: sure, it's weird that Pirate Ship isn't seaworthy, but you can make a reasonable claim that there's something particular to the waters of whatever plane we're on that makes it very, very hard for non-natives to deal with.
Nice idea, but there's no way that's a common keyword. The board state goes utterly crazy.
DeleteI think you have a strong flavor argument against making a keyword for aquatic creatures. Seaworthy makes more sense along those lines, but I'm not getting how seaworthiness helps those with it by the square of their numbers, or why it weakens other creatures at all.
DeleteWarrior is an unlikely type for white merfolk. Fine, just unlikely.
DeleteYeah, the fact that this stacks with every single other Seaworthy creature makes it impossible to beat once you start swinging with 3 or more creatures. I do like that idea of using the tides to sap strength from your enemies. What of this?
DeleteMerfolk Tidehunter
1U
Creature - Merfolk Soldier (C)
Tidalforce (Whenever this creature attacks, until end of turn, it gets +1/+0 and target creature an opponent controls gets -1/-0.)
1/2
There is definitely a better wording for this ability, as well as a better name for it. But I think this has some promise.
Also I'm procrastinating finals right now, hence my relative silence on the site recently.
I could even see using the "new Bushido" here.
DeleteArtist: Fran-Hdez
ReplyDeleteIn this set I would put merfolk in Blue White, landlocked in Green White, dragons and drakes in Green Red, Horrors in Red Black and Cephalids in Black Blue.
Triton Spearmaster 1UW (uncommon)
Creature Merfolk Warrior
When Triton Spearmaster has +1/+0 for every untapped plains you control and +0/+1 for each untapped island you control.
1/1
Static, conditional toughness bonuses are so dangerous.
DeleteWould this mechanic appear on multiple cards?
What if it checked once at the beginning of each turn?
DeleteAt the beginning of each upkeep, CARDNAME gets +1/+0 until end of turn for each untapped plains you control and +0/+1 until end of turn for each untapped island you control.
Still a not insignificant amount of bookkeeping, but better than constant checking. Also really encourages playing WU control, which is where those colors shine anydangways.
I was thinking of making something that cares differently about wether you have untapped basics in your colors.
DeleteHow about one of the following twists:
*As long as you control 4 or more untapped islands and/or plains, cardname has +3/+3
(green red would probably get -X/-X for untapped lands)
*When CARDNAME attacks or blocks it gets +1/+1 for each two untapped islands and/or plains you control.
Otherwise if all the options are too bad as I feel they are here is an alternate submission:
Triton Spearmaster 1UW (uncommon)
Creature Merfolk Warrior
UW: if CARDNAME blocking or becomes blocked by a creature with morph, you may turn it face down.
2/3
That would go in if the set had morph, and morphs in this set would represent underwatter monsters.
Again, we really want to avoid conditional static boosts to toughness. You attack with your boosted creature, and then cast a spell after combat, only for your opponent to inform you that you've accidentally killed your creature. The second one is much better because it uses a trigger with an effect that can't be taken away before EOT.
DeleteThat said, it's weird that it's just counting half your WU lands (like Aspect of Wolf). Maybe: "When ~ attacks or blocks, it gets +X/+X until EOT where X is the lesser of the number of Plains and the number of Islands you control."
The last one could work in a set with morph, though it will only be helpful when your opponent doesn't have enough to unmorph it before damage.
Your formulation is the better one. I could not find a way to suggest you need islands and plains untapped.
DeleteSharkpack (uncommen)
ReplyDelete2BB
Creature - Shark
3/3
Destroy target creature that was dealt damage this turn
Sharks always know when there is a battle, and will feast on the leftovers
Illus: Netarliargus
or
Bloodfest (uncommen)
2BB
Instant
Destroy all creatures that ar dealt damage this turn.
Once these sharks catches your scent of blood, there is no hiding
Illus: Netarliargus