Sunday, January 3, 2016

Spotlight Challenge 1 Initial Review—Zeno Rage

Here's the challenge Zeno Rage is taking lead on:

Design a cycle of mythic rare legendary creatures to be the marquee cards for a new launch of Commander decks.

Let's take a look at the initial submission.

Corraich is a 'free commander' meaning that you any red-white Commander deck you run can have this dwarf legend in addition to one of 13 other possibilities. Interesting.

Corraich fails the vanilla test, but many legends do, as a result of their regularly epic abilities. While he's on the field, and your other commander isn't, and your other commander is a dwarf or warrior—so Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer—his ability kicks in: Your dwarves get an extra combat step every round. And your vigilance creatures too.

As written, this is bad. There's only one legend I can pair Corraich with that turns on his ability, and those two legends don't even support the same strategy (dwarf tribal versus metalcraft).

So what's got potential here?

Players will appreciate support for their favorite under-supported tribes (though this audience is necessarily smaller, or the tribe wouldn't be under-supported), and making that work in Commander where there might not be enough cards in that tribe (there are 35 {RW} dwarves) by pairing it with another tribe is a promising solution. Simply widening Corraich's untap effect to warriors gives the card symmetry the aesthetics demand, and also makes him vastly more relevant (there are 231 {RW} warriors).

Getting a second commander is neat. It makes sense that legend can't be as strong as any staple Commanders without adding a cost, but if the best part about having that second commander is that your deck is now 98 cards instead of 99, or that you can cast a 2/4 for four when you need it (at the expense of increasing the cost to re/cast your good commander), we're wasting players' enthusiasm.

Caring directly about what commander you pair with a free commander sounds good, but we need to be careful not to eliminate choices for the player. I'm also not sure checking that the other commander remains unplayed is half as cool as checking that the other commander is fighting in tandem with her lieutenant.


Faire Unquale is also a lieutenant commander. Spoiler alert: the whole cycle is. And rightly so.

Faire's ability is immediately super black-green, both looking for elves and valuing death. It lets you cast an elf  for free, either a card from your hand or your other commander—if it's an elf. Since elves are so well-supported, that gives us 4 choices for primary commander (or 9 more if we sacrifice tribal synergy for some kind of combo synergy or just because).

Not many elves are expensive enough to get excited about casting them for free. Maybe our elf sacrifice lets us summon any green creature?

It definitely makes things tricky that our commanders all have to be all the colors of our deck, rather than some, but there's no obvious way around that restriction. Still, it does make me wonder if tribal is really the best way to take the lieutenant cycle.


"Sacrifice a commander" is not something I expected to see any time soon, but it does work for both High Monarch Oona and her primary commander—Oona, Queen of the Fae or Wydwen, the Biting Gale, most likely, though we get 20 options if we don't insist on a fellow faerie… which is much more reasonable for this member of the cycle than the first two. Of course, it's not actually relevant what you sacrifice, since it's an on-board Shunt and no one will ever intentionally walk into that.

So we've got a 4/4 flyer for five that gives all our faeries hexproof? Much stronger than our first two designs. Could be a commander on all its own.

I like the idea of a legendary faerie that messes with opponents' spells, but I'm not sure that's Oona's idiom. I certainly don't imagine her sacrificing herself to save her minions.


I was going to say there are no red hydras, but there are 9. Neat. Only Ulasht, the Hate Seed can be Tiersa's hydra mentor, but 19 others can share her lead with a single head.

Why do I need a hydra in my command zone (Ulasht) or in my exile zone (???) to enjoy Tiersa's ability?

As cool as a bard that sings about hydras is, if I were a hydra fan, I'd be a little disappointed the commander for my new hydra commander deck isn't a hydra. Seems fine for dragons, or something else we've got five times as much of, but frustrating here.

Why's my soothing bard so haphazardly violent?


Like Oona above, Geist of Saint Traft gets more representation in Traft, Saint of Angels. This version costs {1} less but only has hexproof as long as your other commander is an angel, and you don't play it. Saviors of Kamigawa rewarded players for not playing cards and it's arguably the worst set of its era. Players like to play cards. You don't have to reward them beyond the normal for it, but don't penalize them for it without a very good reason.

This Traft doesn't give you a free angel to beat your opponent with, but it does make your army essentially unkillable. The fact that you have to spend mana to recast all those cards your saving keeps this ability from being unbeatable, but I'm still not sure how much fun it would be to play against.

Bruna, Light of Alabaster is the suggested pairing, but there are 24 non-angels you can settle for.



So does commander damage add up between my two commanders, or do I track them separately? I assume whenever I cast one, the cost to cast either next time goes up by {2} and I'm not tracking those increments separately?

I suppose these decks could come with effects that let you put non-legendary creatures into your command zone during play, to help meet most of our conditions, though that raises even more questions about playing them and whether they become commanders or not. Almost surely not worth it, unless they're worth it on their own and the synergy with these commanders is icing on the cake.

It's fine to make a cycle loose in terms of allied-versus-enemy colors, or of single-tribe-versus-double, or of what conditions your effects require, but you do need some common thread. I would try to make at least one of those line up. And I'll suggest that among those, the condition seems most relevant to the lieutenant cycle's identity.

Zeno Rage, I think you've got two interesting ideas for Commander cycles here: A cycle of lieutenants, and a tribal cycle. I'm not sure they're compatible. I'm also not seeing evidence that you're considering what kinds of decks these cards make practical, which in turn makes me wonder if you're getting enough feedback from your fellow artisans. Fortunately, you've got a whole week to iterate, request ideas, and beg for evaluation from your peers.

77 comments:

  1. THE ABILITY, PIECE BY PIECE

    I have jiggered some of the words. Here is my wording with commentary explaining the choices I made:

    "Tag Out - ..."

    I like the idea of naming it. It's aesthetically pleasing, and it means that you only have to understand how one of them works to get a sense of the other four.
    ______________________________

    "... As long as CARDNAME is your commander, begin the game with an additional legendary creature from your library in your command zone..."

    The wording "you may begin" wastes space. Why would you play Traft without his angelic general?
    _______________________________

    "You may cast it from and return it to your command zone as if it were your commander."

    The "as if it was" solves three problems. It clarifies which one does commander damage, since the second legend doesn't "do damage as if it were your commander."

    It also clarifies how casting and tax work. Since you cast it "as if" it's your commander, it adds tax cumulatively.

    Finally, it makes it clear that the second legend doesn't have to be your actual commander, so in Traft's case, it can be any White or Blue or White and Blue legend. I think this is ESSENTIAL! Tag-Out has a HUGE restriction hidden from plain-view. Your commander can only have, at most, five lines of text.

    Sure, there are 25 UW Legends, but FIVE of those are vanilla or french vanilla legends from Legends, and three more of them are non-Spirit/Angel Tribal commanders. Furthermore, Hanna and Noyan Dar both want to be supported by non-creature spells. So that's... 17. If they printed a Tribal commander that was supported by only 17 existing creatures, people would balk. Tag-Out is kiiind of like Tribal Commander, so let's leave players with room to be creative, yeah?

    Any general with all of this text devoted to changing exactly-only the first ten seconds of the game is gonna need to be fun. Sure, with this wording, you open the door to let someone play their Akroma with counterspells deck and ignore Traft entirely, but that's gonna happen no MATTER what. Let the guy with the altered Force of Will play his old-school control deck with Akroma as the only win-con. What we need to focus on is how to make five legends with only about four lines of text space seem exciting. First step, remove any bummer moments from the first ability. All upside.

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    1. I really like this change.

      The one thing I'm not happy about is that tax is cumulative, but general damage is not. I wish it would be one or the other. Furthermore, whichever legend you cast second from the command zone will always have a +2 cost, regardless of whether the first one ever left the battlefield, because of the particular way the tax rule is worded. As a lot of people I've played with don't even reference the tax until the first time their commander dies, I expect this to trip a lot of people up.

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    2. That's valid. If space wasn't a concern, I'd give each commander their own 21 points. Considering space is such a huuuge concern, we have this option or the original set-up, and I think this is better if only by degrees.

      The cumulative tax does make the idea of just "splashing" the other commander to dilute your deck less appealing. I mean, sure, it's still sort of strictly better for the spikiest of spikes, but again, I don't think we need to let that spoil a cool idea. I think there should be a cost to having two commanders. I'm open to this not being the right one.

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    3. Why try to write everything out on the card? This is exactly what nontechnical reminder text is for.

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  2. If I'm reading the card correctly, Corraich can go with any red and/or white legendary creature, not just R/W ones. So there are actually quite a lot of choices to pair with him. (I recommend Jazal Goldmane!)

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    1. I think the problem is the wording "It becomes a commander"

      Since every card in your deck must match your commander's color-identity, if the new card is also your commander you get some mixed signals.

      Technically it shouldn't matter, since it becomes your commander at the beginning of the game, but maybe it does? Maybe if you pull Jazal up to Command it makes your Red cards illegal??? I don't know.

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  3. Here's a question that worries me a bit: isn't a Brion Stoutarm commander deck nearly always worse than the same deck with with Corraich + Brion as commanders? It seems like having a buddy commander is nearly all upside for the cost of playing a 98-card deck.

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    1. This sort of reminds me of how people complained about Miracle when it first came out. They said that it meant the "technically" optimal play in eternal formats going forward would be to bluff with every draw, but that never happened. Most people just want to play Magic.

      If Commander were a tournament format, I'd totally agree. Sure, you'll have some Spikes playing for edges, but most EDH decks are suboptimal.

      I guess my thought it "Yeah, but that's fine."

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    2. I'm totally with Havelock here. More options is always better.

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    3. You can reduce the "strictly better" feeling of starting with two commanders by either powering down the commander with the tag team mechanic (make the card expensive/give it a linear ability) OR by making tag team an in-game action. Tribal interaction is the linear route, but I prefer an in-game action:

      Promote (T: Put up to one nontoken creature you control into your command zone. It becomes a commander. Promote only as a sorcery.)

      Commanders with promote can be varied by having haste, or ways to untap, or getting +1/+1 for each commander in the game, etc. I think this will make coming up with five commanders that feel different and use their premiere keyword for more than just deck construction.

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    4. @ HavelockV: I was hoping the restrictions on the cards would stop players from just playing them in any deck. I think is another way to do it though.

      @Nich Grayson: Making Tag Team an in game action would help to solve many of the issues Jay and others have brought up. I think it should still target a legendary creature and should be a once per game action.

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    5. I also like Tag Team as an in game action, but I dislike Nich's wording.

      Does this take up too much space?
      Recruit (At the beginning of your first upkeep, name a legendary creature card. When you cast CARDNAME, search your graveyard, library, or exile for the chosen card and put into your hand.)

      I like you getting your second commander when you cast the new one - this prevents it from being strictly better than other generals. I think simply being able to choose a different commander every game is quite exciting and people will already like the cards for that purpose.

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  4. I like the base idea, but I think there's a number of improvements to be made.

    First, I think you're missing a great opportunity, which is getting to play non-legends as commanders. It would be hard to balance, but then the relatively minor effects of the other commanders make sense. The other way to go is to make the effects broader and less linear so as to have them work better as tandem generals. Also, I think that the commander tax applies on both cards when you cast one of them, which is a bit awkward.

    Also, I would make adding the new creature to the command zone a trigger on your first upkeep. That way its less confusing about identity and so forth. It had to be in your deck for you to search for it. "At the beginning of your first upkeep, you may search your library for a [legendary] creature card and put it into the command zone. It becomes a commander." It clearer while still retaining the meaning of being a commander for commander damage, taxing, etc.

    The specific effects probably need work, the R/W one is hot garbage even if it did work as advertised. R/W doesn't need more aggro nonsense, R/W players want something different. The R/W precon was universally panned.
    Also, why are there three allies and one enemy? If setting up for precons they should all be the same color combinations. While I think they might do something out of the mold eventually, its not going to be before they exhaust ally pairs and 4 color pairs.

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    1. Non-legends as Commanders is a bad door to open. There are a lot of degenerate effects available, and getting (for example) Consecrated Sphinx as your commander is just oppressive.

      And I disagree on color combinations as well; making the color pairs not strict matches well with the tribal theme.

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    2. Where is everyone getting the idea that the color pairings are lopsided? There are two enemy color pairs. RW and GB. They don't overlap each other and they make sense for their respective tribal pairings (dwarves and elves).

      I agree that you can probably do more with a Dwarf commander than "more aggro nonsense." Maybe something equipment-themed ala Sunforger.

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    3. You can use whatever color pairing you want, but if you are building this as wotc would build a commander product than nonmatching color pairings are out. They won't do partial cycles until the remaining untapped ones have been explored, which leaves ally or 4 color.

      EDH is a self-policing format so worrying about degeneracy is largely pointless, especially without testing. My largest problem with the cards as is, is that there's no reason NOT to use them. You might as well choose one of these as your general if you are doing anything in their colors to have a smaller deck and permanent access to another card. There should be some reason to want to play these and some cost they inflict on you. Thinking about it more, it should have some amount of variance involved.

      Recruit - "At the beginning of your first upkeep, you may put a creature card from your hand into the command zone. It becomes a commander."

      The increased variance pushes you to build in a different way while also giving you some games with Consecrated Sphinx as your general, and sometimes giving you Squire or nothing.

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    4. The challenge wasn't to be the next commander deck product, it was to be a cycle of future marque cards. So these could be years from now, after WotC has done allied pairing.

      Is having a smaller deck an advantage or a disadvantage? I seem to be getting mixed vibes. In my opinion, reducing your deck by one card isn't do that much of a boon, at least not if the difference is 99 and 98.

      I agree with Czynski about promoting non-legends. I don't think we should do it. What if Recruit targeted legends, from either your hand or top of your library, ala a cascade effect. If that would be to much, maybe just the top ten or twenty cards of your deck?

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    5. Too unreliable to use a non-search if its not able to hit regular creatures.

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  5. I think this effect merits a keyword that lets you summarize the effect in nontechnical language. Here's a draft

    Lieutenant (You may begin the game with another legendary creature from your library in the command zone. Both creatures are treated as your commander.)

    And the details, provided in the rules insert but not on the card: the additional creature does not limit your color identity (this seems critical for flexibility). The commander tax and commander damage are both shared properties of both legends. I think this is fairly intuitive.

    I don't think it's a serious issue that you get to cut one card for free from your deck. 99 to 98 is not a big change; people already don't play Urza or Mishra's Baubles.

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    1. Minor nitpick, lieutenant is already a keyword.

      I would be more happy to nix the tribal focus than the color identity part of the rules. Allowing "White Akroma with counterspells" seems to run counter to the entire point of the tag team mechanic, which is to have two commanders working in tandem, not one commander plus a card with the functional rules text "perform an end-run around the color identity rules".

      Baubles are also a dead card on the turn you draw them. Having two commanders (assuming you actually want to cast both) lets you play a 98 card deck and have an extra card in "hand" at all times.

      I do like that the shared commander tax means that playing a tag team legend in your 99 isn't always strictly worse.

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  6. This saves a lot of space. It opens the door for more space on the cards, and in our heads. Here are my takes on each legend. Some I changed a lot some just a little, but I'm gonna be thorough in my explanations.
    ______________________________________________________

    Faire Unquale 3BG
    Legendary Creature - Elf Druid
    Teamwork (You may begin the game with another legendary creature from your library in the command zone. Both creatures are treated as your commander.)

    At end of turn, if three or more Elf Creatures you control died this turn, you may put an Elf creature from your hand, graveyard or command zone onto the battlefield.
    4/4

    The only change here is that I added the graveyard to the list of zones you can cheat Elves into from. Given the depth of tribal elves, I think there should be a lot of interesting partners to choose from, and the payoff seems worth it for the hoop you have to jump through.
    ______________________________________________________

    Traft, Saint of Angels WU
    Legendary Creature - Spirit Cleric

    Teamwork (You may begin the game with another legendary creature from your library in the command zone. Both creatures are treated as your commander.)

    Angels and Spirits you control have “W/U: Return this creature to its owner’s hand.”

    Whenever Traft, Saint of Angels attacks, other Angels and Spirits you control get +2/+2 and gain lifelink until end of turn.
    2/2

    To my mind, the self-bounce and hexproof tread the same ground. This version saves space, and rewards you for attacking just like original Traft. Plus, this ability has synergies with the first ability.

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    1. High Monarch Oona 1UUBB
      Legendary Creature - Faerie Wizard

      Teamwork (You may begin the game with another legendary creature from your library in the command zone. Both creatures are treated as your commander.)

      Flying

      Sacrifice a commander: Choose one —
      • Counter target noncreature spell.
      • Return target noncreature permanent to its owner’s hand.
      • Draw two cards.
      4/4

      Sacrificing a commander is really, really cool. But the cheapest you can get this ability for without sacrifice Oona herself is four mana (2 for Sygg and 2 for the tax on Sygg or Oona). The more you use it, the more it costs. You can get around it with Disturbed Burial or the like, but all in all, you'll be working for it, so it should be worth it.

      Obvious Cryptic Command reference is obvious and cool.
      ______________________________________________

      Tiersa, Hydra Soother 1RG
      Legendary Creature - Human Bard

      Teamwork (You may begin the game with another legendary creature from your library in the command zone. Both creatures are treated as your commander.)

      Hydras you control have haste.

      Whenever you cast a Hydra spell, look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a Hydra creature from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.
      1/3

      So a few thoughts. One, I like the idea of storming through your Hydras, but the setup currently rewards you for NOT playing your second commander, and that is the number one concern people have about this is whole idea, that it will be mostly appealing to Spikes who want to play with smaller decks.

      Also, the abiltiy adds 4 mana to your mana pool every time, because you've either got Polukranos or Ulasht, the Hate Seed in your Command Zone. So, a lot of words for a simple effect. You could save space and just have it say "Whenever you cast a Hydra, add RRGG to your mana pool."

      I figure there are enough big-mana tools in Red/Green that you don't need that much help there, and what you really want is card-advantage. Also, Bards tell stories, and for some reason this feels more like that to me, anyone else?

      1/3 just because Bards shouldn't have big swords.

      Delete
    2. Corraich of Alkabah 2RW
      Legendary Creature - Dwarf Warrior

      Teamwork (You may begin the game with another legendary creature from your library in the command zone. Both creatures are treated as your commander.)

      R, Sacrifice a Mountain: Put two 1/1 red Dwarf creature tokens onto the battlefield.

      RW, Tap two untapped Dwarf creatures you control: Corraich of Alkabah deals 2 damage to target creature or player. Gain 2 life.
      3/4

      I'll be real, the only think I like about Corraich is the art. He's hard to cast, and even if he cast Sieze the Day every turn, I'd still be kinda sad to play him. Let's just say, there aren't many dwarves I'd want to play in commander yet, so his deck will have to come with, like, six new Dwarves to really impress me.

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    3. I take it for given that Corraich's deck will come with at least 6 new dwarves.

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    4. I'm hoping that one of the legends could be a "tease" for an upcoming set, and I think that Corraich could be that tease.
      -------------------------------------------

      What is more interesting: Tribal Commanders or Commanders matters Commanders? Id'e like to focus one of them, and not be split. If we move away from Tribal commanders, would the deck colors have to move to a more traditional cycle? I mean, tribal was my justification for having the cycle be split. And if we stay tribal, would it be good to make it an even more "even" split, with 3 allies and 3 enemies?

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  7. I strongly agree with Jay: combining tag-team with a tribal theme in this way is a bit too much. It restricts deck-building heavily, which is not something Commander usually wants. Also, these designs have to bend over backward to provide an extra reward for a same-tribe Commander.

    If you want to address these issues while keeping the feel of tag-team tribal, you could try removing the legendary restriction but making the creature type match mandatory. Here's my shot at it:

    Lieutenant-- You may begin the game with another [TRIBE] creature card in your command zone. For the rest of the game, you may cast that card and return it to the command zone as though it was your commander. (The increased mana cost of {2} applies to both cards.)

    If you look hard it's still strictly-better-ish, but not by that much, and only compared to other Commanders of the same tribe and color identity.

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  8. I am against anything that is likely to result in one of your generals being the "good general" and the other one spending most of the game sitting in the general zone.
    If the deck is designed to be played with the expensive general then I don't want to add the tax before I can afford it the first time. If the deck is made for the cheap one then the expensive one feels like it is just a mana sink to play after I have emptied most of my hand. (Convenient as a bonus option but not efficient enough to be the exciting play)
    I am more interested in either
    1) A general that lets you promote another creature but does not let you search your whole deck for it.
    2) A general that must be in play for you to play your other general but helps pay for it if you meet some condition.

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  9. Promoting seems like a really interesting piece of tech. It really is more elegant, and while it doesn't toy with deckbuilding as much, but perhaps that is for the best.

    Most of all it gives a mechanical identity to the set. Oona is, right now, the only Commander matters design, and I personally think she is the strongest. I suuuuper want to build a Dimir deck with tool-box legends and Oona leading the charge.

    Possible design space:

    Corraich - Whenever CARDNAME attacks, put a 1/1 white and red Dwarf creature token onto the battlefield for each Commander you have.

    or

    Traft - Whenever CARDNAME attacks, put a 4/4 white Angel creature token onto the battlefield tapped and attacking for each Commander you have. Exile them at the end of combat.

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    1. My Promote keyword creates action during gameplay, which is what I like most about it. Plus, it's easy to put a threshold bonus on commander creatures with promote, like:

      * Corraich of Alkabah has double strike as long as you own another commander.

      * You may cast Faire Unquale as though it had flash as long as you own another commander.

      * High Monarch Oona has flying as long as you own another commander.

      * T: Add R or G to your mana pool. Activate this ability only if you own another commander.

      * Traft, Saint of Angels can't be blocked as long as you own another commander.

      If you don't want to do a threshold effect, you can always do a scaling effect. These are rough, but incorporate the the tribal theme you wanted:

      * Whenever a Dwarf and/or Warrior you control attacks, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn for each commander you own.

      * Commander creatures cost you 1 less to cast for each Elf and/or Druid you control.

      * Spells that target Faerie and/or Wizard creatures cost you 1 less to cast for each commander you own.

      * Hydra and/or Ooze creatures you control enter the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter on them for each commander you own.

      * Angel and/or Spirit spells you cast cost 1 less to cast for each commander you own.

      All the threshold and scaling examples use "commander you own" but I'm afraid players might bring their card collection for this bonus instead of looking at commanders in all game zones. Gameplay is probably better with "commander you own" but I'm not sure players would get it,

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    2. "Commander you control" isn't terrible.

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    3. Yeah. It's cleaner too. But I don't know if promoting a commander, then casting it (with at least a 2 mana tax) while still having these prime commanders on the battlefield is doable. Is that loop too far removed from what can actually be accomplished in a single game? All the time you're setting these actions up, you aren't working towards winning the game. Plus, having multiple creatures on the battlefield in Commander is easily undone.

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    4. Does promote need to move the new general from play to the general zone? Can we have the creature stay in play (perhaps with another cost)?
      I don't like the scaling effects. I don't think the dream should be "Have 10 generals" but maybe I am missing what we are going for.

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    5. Having ten commanders is not what I'm going for. I would make it a once per game effect, which means scaling effects are not so great.

      The more I think about these different abilities (Tag Team, Promote. and Recruit), the more I'm going back and forth. Should it target legends or plain creatures? Should it happen once a game or more than once? There are pros and cons for each of these, but I could be swayed either way.

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    6. I think if you can only do it once, you should be able to promote any creature. There is an opportunity cost to having to "turn on" your commander," and in this case you'd need to 1) cast your General, 2) keep it around for a whole turn, 3) then cast another Legendary creature that you drew 4) protect both of them from instant speed-blowouts. That's a HUGE hoop to jump through, and I'm worried the effect will be either be worth it and super-swingy (Which will just make other players hate you out of getting there since there are so many steps) or underwhelming.

      If you want it to be once per game, it HAS to be able to target any creature. The variance of the format will really improve the gameplay here, since it's hard to reliably have the same combo-creature.

      I like Commanders Matter as a theme because it highlights the new technology the most. Doesn't mean that none of them can be tribal (My vote is that Faire Unquale remains almost exactly the same, and that Traft still cares about Angels in some way) but it would make things seem unique.

      There is definitely more space if Promote can happen multiple times (plus it's simpler to template), and if you don't want the decks to have 10 commanders, just don't make all of the Legends have scaling effects.

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  10. So I've been preoccupied the last couple of days, so I haven't had to comment. For the next couple of hours I'm going to go over everything and leave some comments. Some things before hand.

    First, you're supposed to be able to target any legendary creature in your deck, no matter what its color is. So for instance Corraich can have a fellow red legend, or maybe he'll decide to team up with a white legend. The legendary creature doesn't have to be both colors. Some how that got misinterpreted on the card, and that isn't good. It should be clear to players how cards work.

    Secondly, the abilities requiring a commander in your command zone were supposed to balance the fact that you have a second commander in the first place. In hindsight, that doesn't seem to be terribly good.

    Third of all, I'm pretty bad at names. Or characterization. Just saying.

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    1. I've been thinking A LOT about this project. If you want to deligate anything to me, like flavor stuff, or figuring out a particular problem, or just organizing the feedback, just say the word. I really enjoy collaborative design, but the last thing I want is to step on your toes.

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    2. I wouldn't mind if you organized the suggestions. That would be a great help. Thanks for all the help too.

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    3. GOOOOOOGLE SPREADSHEETS AWAY! I'll post something tomorrow.

      Delete
  11. Passing thought:
    "Target creature you control becomes your commander."
    You only ever have one, but it can change throughout the game.

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    1. So effectively Commander Switch? I would add the "That creature gains this ability" ability/clause. That way you can keep switching the commander, even after the original dies. And it will die.

      So how do we keep the original relevant after its not the commander? Any thing could happen to it now that it's not able to immediately go to the command zone.

      Or would that be the point?

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    2. That would be the point.

      We could even do, "When ~ dies, you may appoint another creature you control as your commander, and it takes this ability."

      To be crystal clear: I'm not suggesting this as the challenge's judge, merely as another contributor. It may be a terrible idea.

      Delete
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    4. Do not worry. I'm considering your comment with just as much hope and scepticism as any one else's.

      Delete
  12. So here is what I've decided. Promote seems like the best implementation of what we are going for, and it actually works even when they aren't the commander, so they shouldn't be automatic additions to decks.

    Here is the ability:
    Promote (T: Target creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)

    Just like Czynski pointed out, we don't have to write everything out on the card. The one thing I did think was important was the tax and damage rule. If it wasn't intuitive the first time, I wanted to make sure that it was this time.

    Why not have them combined? Or just have the tax combined? Like jay pointed out, if we are going to give players additional commanders, we don't want to punish them for it.

    I'm going to post the new cards separately, so that you all can comment on each individual one. I won't be able to go in depth on the cards right now, since I'm doing this late.

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  13. High Monarch Oona-1UUBB
    Faerie Wizard
    Flying, Promote (T: Target creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)
    Sacrifice a commander: Choose one —
    • Counter target noncreature spell.
    • Return target permanent to its owner’s hand.
    • Draw two cards.
    4/4

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Do we want to add a larger cost to Promote? Are we ok with a bunch of small commanders that just get sacrificed a few times? Maybe a restriction about needing to promote your biggest creature, or promote a creature when it deals combat damage. I think it is a little weird to call Reassembling Skeleton and Festering Newt commanders, but maybe it makes sense for black to give a little guy a title just to exploit him.

      Delete
    2. All your submissions are smallish creatures. Oona might be more useful as a seven mana 5/5. It could even be 5UB at that point. Her ability definitely is fitting for a 7-drop. The downside is a 5/5 wants to attack, but promote gets in the way of that. However, if her deck is chock full of interesting promote targets and untap effects, you've got something exciting.

      Delete
    3. Thousand Year Elixir's new best friend!

      I think some of the animus of Promote is lost if you can promote any creature. I know I wrote a long thing about how that was essential, but that was back when you were considering promoting only once per game. Looking at it with fresh eyes, I'm concerned that the fun is drained out once she starts promoting Bitterblossom tokens.

      I liked the version of Promote that put the creature into your Command zone. It's a flavor win, it keeps you off of tokens, and it made it so that Oona's ability had a real cost to it so that it doesn't just feel oppressive.

      Delete
    4. Sorry, I made a point to suggest fixes for each other thing:

      Option A:

      Promote (T: Target creature you control becomes a commander. Put it into the command zone. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)

      This version is slick, a little clunkier (meaning you can make the other abilities cooler, or even trigger off of casting your Commander!) and ignores tokens completely. It says "you control" because right now Promoters can actually play politics a bit and offer other decks recurring card advantage. That seems like a real cost.

      Just jam the word 'nontoken' in there.

      Make Oona cost a bunch like Nich suggested.

      Just jam the word 'legendary' in there.

      Accept that Oona will be a frustrating go-to Spike general for years to come and recognize that we're all still having fun in a world with Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Arcum Dagsson.

      Delete
    5. I added nontoken to promote.

      I don't think it's bad to have more politics in commander.

      As for the rest, the only way to see what the best version of promote is to play test it. It might just need a small development tweek, like "1, tap". Or it might have to send your new commander to the command zone. I don't know. But play testing would be the next step.

      Delete
    6. Here's the changes for Oona:

      High Monarch Oona-5UB
      Faerie Wizard
      Flying, Promote (T: Target nontoken creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)
      Sacrifice a commander: Choose one —
      • Counter target noncreature spell.
      • Return target permanent to its owner’s hand.
      • Draw two cards.
      5/5

      Delete
    7. I think you're right about playtesting the ability. I often forget the importance of letting development develop.

      So as not to multi-post, I'll just say all of the final versions are sweet. I would be excited to play with three of them, and excited to play against the other two. It's been good working with you.

      Delete
    8. Thanks! You've helped out so much, and really appreciate all of the feedback, even if I was unable to respond to it all.

      Just wondering, which three would you play with?

      Delete
  14. Corraich of Alkabah-2WR
    Dwarf Warrior
    Double strike, Promote (T: Target creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)
    0: Attach target equipment you control to target Commander you control. Activate only as a sorcery.

    Commanders you control get +1/+1 as long as they are equipped.
    2/4

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think this has 1 too many abilities. If I had to cut anything, it would be the +1/+1 effect. Or double strike.

      Delete
    2. I added the +1/+1 effect to try and make people want to promote, because right now I would just attach all my equipment to him and swing.

      I might change it to a more threshold effect.

      Delete
    3. I like this Corraich a lot. Like, looking at the card made me want to brew, and that's the dream.

      Double-Strike runs counter to both the Anthem and the Promote effect. May I suggest:

      Corraich of Alkabah-2WR
      Dwarf Warrior
      Vigilance

      Promote (T: Target creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)

      T: Attach target equipment you control to target Commander you control.

      Commanders you control get +1/+1 as long as they are equipped.
      2/4

      Delete
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    6. Changed the flavor a bit:

      Corraich the Fortress-2WR
      Dwarf Soldier
      Vigilance, Promote (T: Target nontoken creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)
      1: Attach target equipment you control to target Commander you control. If this is the fourth time this ability has resolved this turn, creatures you control gain +2/+5 until end of turn.
      2/5

      Delete
  15. Faire Unquale-1BG
    Elf Druid
    Flash, Promote (T: Target creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)

    At the beginning of each end step, for every two creatures that died this turn, you may put a creature from your command zone unto the battlefield.
    3/2

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Without testing, I think this could be a 3/3 for 1BG. Most Druids tap for mana. It seems more like an Elf Shaman effect. Or Elf Zombie if you want to cross tribes. The ability certainly supports Zombie.

      Delete
    2. Faire Unquale has been your strongest design throughout this process, and this iteration is no different.

      Unlike with Oona, I think this version works perfectly with your version of Promote, slowly gaining power over the course of the game, and really making it feel worth it to Promote an Elvish Visionary.

      Note, the design still works with:

      "Promote (T: Target creature you control becomes a commander. Put it into your command zone. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)"

      Although it's obviously weaker.

      Delete
    3. Just some small changes here:

      Faire Unquale-1GB
      Elf Shaman
      Flash, Promote (T: Target nontoken creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)

      At the beginning of each end step, for every two creatures that died this turn, you may put a creature from your command zone unto the battlefield.
      3/3

      Delete
  16. Tiersa Hydra Soother-RG
    Human Bard
    Indestructible, Promote (T: Target creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)

    Creatures with +1/+1 counters on them have haste.

    Counters remain on Commanders as they move to any zone other than a player’s hand or library.
    2/2

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is great. I see that all the commanders have a keyword, but I don't know if indestructible is the best fit for this one. Indestructible means Tiersa is a dedicated blocker. Every turn it blocks, and at end of turn promotes a guy. Don't we want all the commanders to incentivize attacking? Vigilance is a better fit. Plus, it has snyergy with promote.

      Delete
    2. The problem is as soon as she dies, all of the counters are taken off of your creatures in your command zone. I need a Wyoming to word it so that it works no matter where she is.

      I gave her indestructible so that she wouldn't die as easily, but as soon as I change the above problem, I'll change it.

      Delete
    3. I don't know but I assumed that the counters would stay on whatever they were on until it changed zones again, so even if she dies you can recast her and then recast your big hydra general. I don't think there is any rule that immediately remove the counters.
      A less splashy, but more rules friendly, version I was thinking of is just have other generals come into play with addition counters based on how much tax was payed.

      Delete
    4. Zeno's right. Skullbriar, the Walking Grave works because it tracks itself, but for cards that track something else between zones we have Oloro Ageless Ascetic to look towards.

      May I suggest:

      As long as Tiersa is your Commander, counters remain on Commanders...

      Delete
    5. I think this wording will work:

      Tiersa, Monster Enrager-RG
      Human Bard

      Haste, Promote (T: Target nontoken creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)

      Creatures with +1/+1 counters on them have haste.

      If Tiersa Monster Enrager is in your command zone or on the battlefield, counters remain on Commanders as they move to any zone other than a player’s hand or library.

      Delete
  17. Traft, Saint of Angels-3UW
    Spirit Cleric
    Hexproof, Promote (T: Target creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)
    At the beginning of your combat, put a 4/4 white Angel creature token onto the battlefield tapped and attacking for each attacking Commander you have. Exile them at the end of combat.
    3/3

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is so good. People are going to see this card and want to buy the product. Not only is it a nice nod to the original Saint Traft, but it's an exciting upgrade. Well done.

      Delete
    2. Nitpick, I'm pretty sure this doesn't mechanically work. At the beginning of combat nothing is attacking, that's why, like, when you have a Icy Manipulator opponents have to say "Beginning of combat" so you can tap something down.

      Fixes include "When Traft, Saint of Angels attacks" or "Whenever one of your Commanders attacks..."

      Otherwise, this card is tooootally ready to print.

      Delete
    3. Traft, Saint of Angels-3UW
      Spirit Cleric
      Hexproof, Promote (T: Target nontoken creature becomes a commander. Count it’s commander tax and damage separately from other commanders.)
      Commanders you control have: “Whenever this creature attacks, put a 4/4 white Angel creature token onto the battlefield tapped and attacking. Exile them at the end of combat.”
      2/2

      Delete
  18. With the limitation on space, this could be a good wording on lots of the cards.

    "Your other commander has "... keyword based on cycle/color hexproof, haste, +2/+2, flying, deathtouch..

    ReplyDelete
  19. Here is the updated renders: https://www.dropbox.com/s/19p7lm9410hrddx/Final%20Commanders.mse-set?dl=0

    ReplyDelete