Cool Card Design of the Day 6/24/2014 - Somewhere between Remand and Force Spike / Mana Leak, there is a counterspell that's worth playing in the right deck, but not quite so effective. Is it Many Leaks?
I don't know if it's very compelling to play a spell like this. It's so easy to play around. And after the first use, your opponent knows it's back in your hand, and can make YOU tap out easily to get around it. You have to pay 1U for every 1 they play. Actually, you have to hold up 1U for ever 1 they hold up. And at that point you might as well play Cancel.
I'd love to do {1} for {U} but given how often they reprint Force Spike, I don't think that's an option. {2} for {1}{U} might work, since that's still worse than Mana Leak until to snaps back to your hand. Here's the thing, you don't have to pay every time they cast a spell. You do it once and it either counters their spell for {1}{U}, or they now have to pay {1} more for every spell they cast. You have to keep up the mana to make that happen, but a little upkeep on a one-sided Sphere of Resistance isn't unreasonable. More importantly, you can then punish them for playing below their curve with harder counters, instant draw, and/or flash creatures.
I'm not saying most decks want this, but that there would be some.
That was my initial reaction too, but I'm not sure it's correct. After all, Rishadan Port exchanges mana at the same rate.
The weird thing about Many Leaks is that it actually isn't much different from a Force Spike costing 1U. Consider two scenarios:
(1) Opponent has 3 mana up and casts Tarmagoyf. You have Force Spike in hand, but hold it hoping to counter his turn-4 play.
(2) Opponent has 3 mana up and casts Tarmagoyf. You have Many Leaks in hand and cast it. The opponent pays.
In scenario (2), you're preventing a follow-up play by forcing the opponent to use his last mana, and spending an additional mana to do so. But otherwise, it's the same as scenario (1): the spell doesn't get countered, and you still have a counter in hand.
In that scenario Many Leaks is slightly more useful than Force Spike because you can eat up their last mana without spending a card.
There will be situations where Force Spike is better, or even worse. There'd be no value to the design if it were useful in exactly the same conditions as an existing card.
Needing to eat up an opponent's mana (at the risk of them potentially letting you counter the spell) seems like a very marginal place for Many Leaks to be. My question is whether the additional text is worth the gameplay it's adding. The mana-eating scenario seems more likely to happen if you make this tax for {2} and/or return to your hand immediately.
Don't get me wrong-- I like the design idea a lot, and the motivation behind it. I just think there needs to be more incentive to make the novel, mana-eating part actually happen.
Yeah, I see your point. You can use Many Leaks and cast Horizon Chimeras and Boon Satyrs at end of turn. But do you really want to play a spell that puts you on the backfoot constantly and allows your opponent to create big plays against you? Your opponent will hope you cast Many Leaks each turn, because then you're not going to be able to play end step creatures, or card draws, or whatever.
I think having to hold up two mana every turn is way worse than the cost to play Sphere of Resistance one time. Especially since Many Leak's effect is not a sure thing. Plus, in mid to late game, Sphere of Resistance shuts down easily playing multiple spells a turn for your one time investment. But Many Leaks doubles in cost to use when you're trying to stop multiple spells in a single turn.
Sphere of Resistance is unquestionably stronger than Many Leaks. That's intentional.
As I said, Many Leaks could potentially require the opponent to pay {2}, and if it doesn't, we could very safely remove the "at end of turn" so you could cast it multiple times on the same spell.
But what I'm hearing from some of the feedback is that we're assuming that you cast this every round and that there are no other instants in your hand. You don't run this if it's your only instant. When you cast it, it either counters your opponent's spell, or becomes an implied Sphere of Resistance as long as you keep two mana up, which you are happy to do, because when the opponent spends all their mana you counter their spell, and when they don't you Think Twice or Negate it, etc. It won't be good every time, but it won't be bad every time either. It doesn't work well in every deck, but there are decks where it does. While Many Leaks falls on the low-end of that spectrum, we want most cards somewhere on that same spectrum.
When I read this I have a really hard time figuring out how to play it optimally. Force Spike and Sphere of Resistance have similar text but play differently, and I think that's where I'm getting tripped up. Riffing on the Sphere of Resistance aspect:
Curse of Leakiness 1U Enchantment - Aura Curse Enchant Player Spells cost enchanted player 1 more to cast. Whenever enchanted player casts a spell, return ~ to its owner's hand.
So it doesn't actually counter anything, but you don't need to leave mana up? Fascinating. I'm intrigued by the way this plays as if it's a Many Leaks that the opponent knows you have.
Interesting. It requires more mana than Many Leaks, and never counters a spell, but works in a deck with few/no instants. (And combos just as well—if not better—with Force Spike and Mana Leak.)
I like how this plays with other counters in your hand, letting you stretch the value by responding to your opponent playing around Many Leaks by hitting them with a hard counter.
Instant, 1U Counter target spell unless its controller pays {1}. Return CARDNAME to your hand unless that player pays {1}.
My analysis of that was: When the opponent has 3+ mana spare: neither achieves anything. When the opponent has 2 mana spare: Mana Leak counters the spell, this does nothing. When the opponent has 1 mana spare: Mana Leak counters the spell. This either counters the spell or goes back to your hand, but the opponent chooses which. When the opponent has no mana spare: Mana Leak counters the spell. This counters the spell and goes back to hand for free. So Mana Leak is significantly better when they have {1} or {2} available, but this is much, much better when they're completely tapped out. Interesting.
Cool Card Design of the Day
I don't know if it's very compelling to play a spell like this. It's so easy to play around. And after the first use, your opponent knows it's back in your hand, and can make YOU tap out easily to get around it. You have to pay 1U for every 1 they play. Actually, you have to hold up 1U for ever 1 they hold up. And at that point you might as well play Cancel.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to do {1} for {U} but given how often they reprint Force Spike, I don't think that's an option. {2} for {1}{U} might work, since that's still worse than Mana Leak until to snaps back to your hand. Here's the thing, you don't have to pay every time they cast a spell. You do it once and it either counters their spell for {1}{U}, or they now have to pay {1} more for every spell they cast. You have to keep up the mana to make that happen, but a little upkeep on a one-sided Sphere of Resistance isn't unreasonable. More importantly, you can then punish them for playing below their curve with harder counters, instant draw, and/or flash creatures.
DeleteI'm not saying most decks want this, but that there would be some.
That was my initial reaction too, but I'm not sure it's correct. After all, Rishadan Port exchanges mana at the same rate.
DeleteThe weird thing about Many Leaks is that it actually isn't much different from a Force Spike costing 1U. Consider two scenarios:
(1) Opponent has 3 mana up and casts Tarmagoyf. You have Force Spike in hand, but hold it hoping to counter his turn-4 play.
(2) Opponent has 3 mana up and casts Tarmagoyf. You have Many Leaks in hand and cast it. The opponent pays.
In scenario (2), you're preventing a follow-up play by forcing the opponent to use his last mana, and spending an additional mana to do so. But otherwise, it's the same as scenario (1): the spell doesn't get countered, and you still have a counter in hand.
In that scenario Many Leaks is slightly more useful than Force Spike because you can eat up their last mana without spending a card.
DeleteThere will be situations where Force Spike is better, or even worse. There'd be no value to the design if it were useful in exactly the same conditions as an existing card.
Needing to eat up an opponent's mana (at the risk of them potentially letting you counter the spell) seems like a very marginal place for Many Leaks to be. My question is whether the additional text is worth the gameplay it's adding. The mana-eating scenario seems more likely to happen if you make this tax for {2} and/or return to your hand immediately.
DeleteDon't get me wrong-- I like the design idea a lot, and the motivation behind it. I just think there needs to be more incentive to make the novel, mana-eating part actually happen.
DeleteYeah, I see your point. You can use Many Leaks and cast Horizon Chimeras and Boon Satyrs at end of turn. But do you really want to play a spell that puts you on the backfoot constantly and allows your opponent to create big plays against you? Your opponent will hope you cast Many Leaks each turn, because then you're not going to be able to play end step creatures, or card draws, or whatever.
DeleteI think having to hold up two mana every turn is way worse than the cost to play Sphere of Resistance one time. Especially since Many Leak's effect is not a sure thing. Plus, in mid to late game, Sphere of Resistance shuts down easily playing multiple spells a turn for your one time investment. But Many Leaks doubles in cost to use when you're trying to stop multiple spells in a single turn.
Sphere of Resistance is unquestionably stronger than Many Leaks. That's intentional.
DeleteAs I said, Many Leaks could potentially require the opponent to pay {2}, and if it doesn't, we could very safely remove the "at end of turn" so you could cast it multiple times on the same spell.
But what I'm hearing from some of the feedback is that we're assuming that you cast this every round and that there are no other instants in your hand. You don't run this if it's your only instant. When you cast it, it either counters your opponent's spell, or becomes an implied Sphere of Resistance as long as you keep two mana up, which you are happy to do, because when the opponent spends all their mana you counter their spell, and when they don't you Think Twice or Negate it, etc. It won't be good every time, but it won't be bad every time either. It doesn't work well in every deck, but there are decks where it does. While Many Leaks falls on the low-end of that spectrum, we want most cards somewhere on that same spectrum.
Holy cow, I missed that it only returns to your hand at end of turn. Everything I said was based on it returning immediately, like Remand.
DeleteThis seems like it could be ineffective against experienced players, and suffocating for new. Definitely seems like ome that needs testing to judge.
ReplyDeleteThen again, I definitely don't think "reusable counterspell" sounds fun at all, so I'm biased.
It only ever counters one spell, max.
DeleteTrue. But the threat could stretch greater. I wonder if that's better or worse.
DeleteI'm not remotely sure this is a good design, or would be worth printing. I'm just trying to suss out why or why not.
ReplyDeleteOne good reason is that players may despise it simply for looking bad, whether it is or not.
When I read this I have a really hard time figuring out how to play it optimally. Force Spike and Sphere of Resistance have similar text but play differently, and I think that's where I'm getting tripped up. Riffing on the Sphere of Resistance aspect:
ReplyDeleteCurse of Leakiness 1U
Enchantment - Aura Curse
Enchant Player
Spells cost enchanted player 1 more to cast.
Whenever enchanted player casts a spell, return ~ to its owner's hand.
So it doesn't actually counter anything, but you don't need to leave mana up? Fascinating. I'm intrigued by the way this plays as if it's a Many Leaks that the opponent knows you have.
DeleteInteresting. It requires more mana than Many Leaks, and never counters a spell, but works in a deck with few/no instants. (And combos just as well—if not better—with Force Spike and Mana Leak.)
DeleteI like how this plays with other counters in your hand, letting you stretch the value by responding to your opponent playing around Many Leaks by hitting them with a hard counter.
ReplyDeleteReminds me of Spell Extortion by L2i0n0k7:
ReplyDeleteInstant, 1U
Counter target spell unless its controller pays {1}.
Return CARDNAME to your hand unless that player pays {1}.
My analysis of that was:
When the opponent has 3+ mana spare: neither achieves anything.
When the opponent has 2 mana spare: Mana Leak counters the spell, this does nothing.
When the opponent has 1 mana spare: Mana Leak counters the spell. This either counters the spell or goes back to your hand, but the opponent chooses which.
When the opponent has no mana spare: Mana Leak counters the spell. This counters the spell and goes back to hand for free.
So Mana Leak is significantly better when they have {1} or {2} available, but this is much, much better when they're completely tapped out. Interesting.