Cool Card Design of the Day3/5/2014 - This was the card I originally tried to use Satyr Wayfinder's text on, but it was too much text. So this uses the old search method to leave room for the keyword that can get you the spell for free.
I've definitely seen keywords named Momentum before, though I can't recall if they worked this way or not.
Both of these keywords are cost reduction mechanics and while they will both trigger in a subset of situations, Momentum can work when you cast two very cheap spells while Trivial can work whether you cast any spells or not (but obviously spending 5 to save 2 is pointless). Which looks more fun / interesting to you?
While you could put one of these keywords on any spell, I put it on a Rampant Growth effect specifically because it's an example of a card that is rarely worth mana in the late game and that you cast because you've got nothing better to do (and for a tiny amount of deck-trimming). Where else would a cost reduction effect like these be used? Which of those uses best warrants the mechanic?
Trivial runs into trouble with mana filtering stuff like Skyshroud Elf. Not that anything like that gets printed any more, but I'm sure there are similar ones that I'm not thinking of. Burning-Tree Emissary comes to mind.
ReplyDeleteThat's something to watch out for. We don't want to make anything Trivial that would be worth playing a Skyshroud Elf in Legacy for.
DeleteYeah. Like I said, Skyshroud Elf wouldn't see print today, but Trivial does seem to be the more abusable/dangerous of the two. If there were any big effects, I would definitely expect a deck that could pull them off early in at least Modern.
DeleteAnd how much do we want to have a mechanic that reads very splashy but never appears on anything that lives up to its perceived potential?
A second thought that just occurred to me is that it can only work on cards that are color specific. Obviously you understand this since you limited the search to Forests, but just how much design space is there if you are limited to things that work for free without breaking the color pie?
On that note, what if it was "if you spent X mana that shares a color with this"?
DeleteToo complicated?
The idea of cost reduction if you've done a bunch of other stuff is really cool. However, I'm not sure this is the best execution of this idea. When the payoff is Rampant Growth it's really hard to get excited about jumping through the hoops to set it up. For that matter I think it's better suited as a bomb keyword, much like Miracle.
ReplyDeleteFinishing Blow (uncommon)
6RR
Sorcery
CARDNAME deals 10 damage to target player.
Momentum 4 (This costs 0 to cast if it's the fourth spell you cast this turn.)
My concern with a card like Finishing Blow is that it's too warping, because it's such a big effect. I'd gladly build a red deck full of 1cc burn and Finishing Blow (and storm if it's modern/legacy).
DeleteThe goal of free Rampant Growth wasn't to be exciting, or even to be something you'd jump through hoops for, but to reduce the feel-bad of drawing one late. That's certainly not the justification we'd use on all cards with that mechanic, because then it wouldn't be worth the bother.
DeleteShouldn't Momentum be a build-around-me effect? The numbers might need tweaking on Finishing Blow, but it's actually less impactful on the board state than Sorin's Vengeance.
DeleteWe might want to consider adding a mana cost to Momentum that's not always {0}.
How is the goal of reducing the feel-bads of drawing a card late served by a keyword that does nothing when you're in topdeck mode?
DeleteWe're confusing Momentum and Trivial a bit.
DeleteI agree with you both in regards to Momentum: it's useless in top-deck mode and it does look like something players would want to build around (but like storm, we have to be careful about the most degenerate case).
Trivial works differently. It can combo with activated abilities (and a few triggered abilities). That's not to say we don't want or expect players to build around it—all mechanics should see some of that—but it doesn't require as different a deck/playstyle as momentum.
I think Momentum plays too much like Storm, and we all know how that ended up. It incentivizes you to do the same (I claim unfun) shenanigans that storm does. Obviously your free Rampant Growth doesn't do that, but if it were actually keyworded I imagine you'd want some cards that would lead to winning the game.
ReplyDeleteI don't know that you're wrong, nor do I disagree, but:
DeleteIs it the act of building a storm deck or of setting up for a big turn with Storm that's unfun, or the way that it tends to win the game in one turn? If momentum never scales up beyond what's printed, and it only gets you one mana-free spell each turn, it's potential to end the game the same way seems drastically lower.
Storm is not broken because it rewards playing a lot of spells on a turn; it's broken because it's exponentially more powerful in multiples.
DeleteYou play a spell.
You play a spell with storm, and you get a free copy.
You play another spell with storm, and you get three free copies.
You play another spell with storm, and you get seven free copies. This very quickly spirals out of control.
Storm counts the number of spells cast in a turn. Copies put onto the stack directly with the storm trigger aren't cast, so they don't compound the effect of future storm cards.
DeleteThe only storm card with this particular degenerate interaction is Mind's Desire, and that's because each storm copy (that wasn't a land) translates directly into an additional spell cast.
"Is it the act of building a storm deck or of setting up for a big turn with Storm that's unfun, or the way that it tends to win the game in one turn?"
DeleteI think it's the latter for a few reasons:
1) Magic sells itself as a game of building up resources and making progressively more powerful plays. Storm subverts this narrative by going from "zero" to "win the game" all in one turn, and ideally as soon as possible.
2) Sitting around watching while your opponent takes a long sequence of actions on their turn is really boring.
3) Setting up for one big turn is fun -- for the Storm pilot! But because so much of it revolves around stockpiling the right cards in hand, which is hidden information to the opponent, it's harder for them to feel engaged with the game that the Storm pilot is playing.
Storm is unfun, not because of the setting up or the win-in-one-turn factor, but because it's uninteractive. Winning in one turn is a factor in that, in the way that Empty the Warrens gives you a lot more opportunities to fight back than Tendrils of Agony. But Magic is, at it's heart, about permanents, especially creatures. Even a noninteractive deck like Dredge in its heyday would still present you with a horde of Zombie tokens (+ FKZ), or a Dread Return'd Iona, etc.
DeleteI think.
So if we could make Momentum reward building your deck a certain way and/or setting up a turn for some reward, without the uninteractive insta-win potential of Storm, it might be okay..
DeleteSince Momentum can only trigger once per turn, you're incentivized to cast two spells, cast a Momentum card, and then stop so that you have enough gas to do it all again next turn. A bunch of 3 card 'mini-storms' should be better at maintaining the normal cadence of a game, rather than the solitaire-style of traditional storm decks.
DeleteTrivial rewards you for spending mana: You need to have plenty of mana to spend, as well as enough things to spend it on. That's a promising starting place because it works best when players are doing a lot of things often, and I probably don't need to explain how that correlates strongly with a fun game.
ReplyDeleteThe big questions are, Can we support both of those needs reasonably? (and Will trivial still be worthwhile once we have, or was getting that far success enough?) and Is making spells cheaper the ideal reward for a player who has successfully spent a lot of mana?
Not sure we can answer the first question without trying, but I know I'd start by including both mana sinks (with big spells, kicker, upkeep, and/or mana-activated abilities) and better mana (lands with spell effects, more mana-producing creatures/artifacts).
I'm now thinking the answer to the last question is 'no.' If you've worked to have enough mana and mana sinks to turn trivial on, saving some mana—while not a bad thing—is the least valuable manner of help you could receive. I'd rather get additional effect out of the spell, or even better (because it helps you chain further trivial cards), cantripping.
Lightning Cloud {2}{R}
Instant (cmn)
~ deals 3 damage to target c/p.
Infuse 6 (If you spent 6 or more mana this turn, draw a card.)
Commune Seer {3}{G}
Creature-Centaur Shaman (cmn)
3/3
When ~ ETB, Infuse 6. (If you spent 6 or more mana this turn, draw a card.)
I agree momentum is really interesting. It seems to be exciting for a similar reason to storm, but less broken. But rampant growth seems to be the wrong spell for it -- once I can cast three spells in the same turn, it seems I don't need rampant growth much.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like it either wants to be a cost reduction on a more expensive spell (eg. turn 4: bears, bears, baloth for free) or an early game spell which has an enhanced effect or free cost if I have it left in my hand (eg. turn 4 bears, bears, shock for free)?
Yeah, I'm now convinced that the two cards I mocked up are poor uses of (either) mechanic. I like the idea of a 4/4 Baloth for 5 that's free if you meet the condition.
DeleteKeeping it in green and tying it to power could be a fun mechanic?
DeleteObservant Baloth 3GG
If creatures you control with four or more total power have entered the battlefield this turn, you may cast CARDNAME without paying its mana cost.
4/4
Potential: add "since the beginning of your last turn" and "flash".
I like Momentum, but I wish it worked past the third spell so you don't lose your momentum :) What about: Momentum (this costs 1 less to cast for each other spell you cast this turn)" I could see something like this as a RUG mechanic in bizarralara.
ReplyDeleteAffinity for Spells [You] Cast This Turn is something I thought briefly about. The reason I shied away from it is that without a high threshold, players will most often just use it for 1 and the effect will be marginal. But I didn't go deep, so maybe it's better than that.
DeleteAffinity For Your Spells would need a lot of support-- Cantrips, Gating and self-bounce creatures, Cost Reduction (Goblin Electromancer), 'free' spells (Coal Stoker), etc.
DeleteIt does have the danger of encouraging solitaire-style 'one big turn' play, which your original Momentum mostly avoids. It's a neat effect to play around with.
http://goblinartisans.blogspot.com/2013/09/weekend-art-challenge-review_16.html - > Work Yet to Do
ReplyDeleteAlso, weirdly enough, I'm posting a SI4C tomorrow and I was considering recycling momentum as one of the mechanics. Decided against it in the end, but strange that you posted this a day after I was concepting cards.
DeleteHa. I love that it's not just the same keyword (in essence) but the same spell. Crazy.
DeleteI like the idea of spells that you get if you've played a big spell.
ReplyDeletePath of Giants 1G
Sorcery
If you've cast another spell with converted mana cost 5 or more this turn, you may cast Path of Giants without paying its mana cost.
Search your library for a Forest card and put that card onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeletePath of Safety 1W
DeleteInstant
If you've cast another spell with converted mana cost 5 or more this turn, you may cast Path of Safety without paying its mana cost.
Creatures you control gain protection from the color of your choice until the end of turn.
Path of Return UU
Instant
If you've cast another spell with converted mana cost 5 or more this turn, you may cast Path of Return without paying its mana cost.
Return target nonland permanent to its owners hand..
Path of Clensing 1R
Instant
If you've cast another spell with converted mana cost 5 or more this turn, you may cast Path of Clensing without paying its mana cost.
Discard your hand. Draw cards equal to the number of cards discarded this way.
Path of Madness 1BB
Instant
If you've cast another spell with converted mana cost 5 or more this turn, you may cast Path of Decay without paying its mana cost.
Target player discards a card at random.
These remind me partially of the Dragon's Breath cycle of auras from Scourge that you get back from your graveyard for free when you cast a big creature. You could concept these similarly, and make a better connection between the free-ness and the effect
DeleteDragon Fire 2R
Sorcery
If you've cast a creature with converted mana cost 5 or more this turn, you may cast ~ without paying its mana cost.
~ deals 3 damage to each creature without flying.
Demon Madness 1B
Sorcery
If you've cast a creature with converted mana cost 5 or more this turn, you may cast ~ without paying its mana cost.
Target player discards a card at random.