A frequent blogatog topic is using errata to make the Nephilim from Guildpact legendary, to scratch the 4-color commander itch so many players feel. MaRo's (correct) view is that errata shouldn't be used to functionally change cards, and as he frequently points out, 4-color design space is virtually non-existent.
One of the ways Ken Nagle et. al. approached the narrowness of 3 color design while trying to keep FRF draftable with Khans was to take advantage of off-color hybrid activation costs, which opened up space for a new cycle of three-color legends for Commander purposes. This seemed like the perfect execution for 4-color legends, so I came up with a cycle.
I'm not convinced that the activated ability could be mono-green, which is a big strike against it as a hybrid ability. Green is one of the graveyard colors, but it doesn't typically resurrect stuff from the opponent's GY.
The other four Nephilim will be appearing over the course of this week, along with some discussion of hybrid design.
Make the ability black-red and it could be:
ReplyDeleteUntil end of turn, whenever an opponent discards a card CARDNAME deals one damage to that player
I still think it was a massive overreaction to add activated abilities to the colour identity. Surely the appropriate fix would have been that cards can be of the colours of the commander, but also have symbols in the text box that the commander has in the text box? That means this would allow a sort-of four-colour deck, but not completely four colours. Conversely, If people want to play a four-colour 100+ card singleton deck that doesn't really care about the commander, I don't see why they shouldn't just have been allowed to.
ReplyDeleteBut that doesn't affect the rules as they are now.
A hybrid, with a different hybrid ability, is a really good idea for creating a feels-four-colour card. You could potentially do something similar by having a (CD)(DC)(EF)(EF) card with a C/D ability and a E/F ability, to me that would feel more nephilim-y, but probably be more complicated.
So I like the design of this, but I agree it needs a bit more work to feel like a coherent whole. And yes, I think "steal from opponent's discard" doesn't feel green, but maybe something similar would?
I agree the activated ability doesn't feel green. If it were mono-black, this would be a neat way to do a WU / WB Esper card.
DeleteI'll also offer up that you could remove hybrid from this design entirely and just have a WU creature with a BG ability and still have a four-color card that's a bit easier to cast. That's not to say this hybrid solution isn't a cool way to do it, but it is extremely hard, as we're seeing with this execution.
Maybe Obelisk of Alara style legendary creatures?
DeleteDana, the Practical Pyromancer 3R
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
1B: Dana deals one damage to target creature you control. That creature gains haste until end of turn.
1U: Dana deals one damage to target player. That player may draw and then discard a card.
XXGG: Dana deals X damage to target creature. If that creature dies this turn, you gain life equal to its toughness.
2/3
@Jack: I'm actually a big fan of the color identity rules. I think it started as a kludgy way to allow people to play Thelon and Bosh as commanders, but it's grown on me. As far as having four colors in the casting cost split between two hybrid factions, maro has said they've made designs in that area that end up being much more confusing than you would think at first.
Delete@Jay: I could absolutely do CD mana cost w/ EF activated, but then it wouldn't be functional as a 1, 2, 3, or 4 color deck the way this cycle wants to be.
@Zachariah: I like that execution as well, although three activated abilities on a single card tend to have space issues (see just about every planeswalker printed). Note: that last ability is definitely not in Green's slice of the pie.
DeleteHow about:
ReplyDelete{B/G} {B/G} ,exile a card from target opponent's graveyard: return target card that shares a type with the exiled card from your graveyard to your hand.
Better for hybrid purposes, but loses a little of the crazy I was aiming for.
DeleteThe first ability alone seems too strong. A significant portion of decks just automatically lose to that. I can't even afford to keep my mana rocks in play. If I pay {4} to keep two of my creatures, I don't get to do anything else. Since you're in white and/or blue, you'll be bouncing/wrathing/countering everything else with ease.
ReplyDeleteThe first half is a great white blue hybrid card (though it may be too strong as you say). Maybe this card should be reversed:
DeleteMana Distributor 2RG
Legendary Creature - Human Shaman
At the beginning of each players pre-combat main phase that player adds two mana of any color to his or her mana pool.
1U/W: Return target creature to its owner's hand unless he or she pays 2.
2/3
Definitely overpowered. This is more proof of concept than anything else. One of my design goals in the cycle was to avoid hybrid cliches where I could, and try to tap into relatively unexplored overlapping abilities. I'm not sure that it would be improved by changing it to: "At the beginning of your upkeep, choose any number of target permanents and pay 1 for each. If you do, return target perm. to owner's hand unless he/she pays 1.
DeleteIt should probably not be opponents only but all players? And perhaps 1 mana would be more sustainable than 2.
ReplyDeleteLots of development knobs to tweak here. 1 would definitely be less oppressive, but I doubt that the net fun of the game would be noticeably different than with 2.
DeleteI really like the general direction, but Jay's right that these are going to be tough to design. The self-combo is certainly a viable option, but not a requirement if the abilities feel otherwise connected.
ReplyDeleteThe abilities might not even need to feel connected - just a complaint about the Torrent Elemental and Brutal Hordechief cycle for not having super connected abilities.
DeleteThis card touches on exactly what is so odious about the commander color identity rules.
ReplyDeleteIn regular Magic (read: absolutely every format *except* commander), 8 color combinations theoretically could want this card: Orzhov, Selesnya, Dimir, Simic, Esper, Bant, Sultai, or white-blue-black-green.
An additional 9 combinations can get full utility out of this card, but also running red mana they don't need. Nonetheless, they could get full utility out of this card: Mardu, Naya, Grixis, Temur, white-blue-black-red, white-blue-red-green, white-black-red-green, blue-black-red-green, or 5-colors.
Six others can cast it and use its first ability: mono-white, mono-blue, Azorius, Boros, Izzet, and Jeskai.
So that's 23 color combinations that theoretically could get some mileage out of this card.
The commander color identity rules dictate that this card is allowed to go in exactly two decks: white-blue-black-green, or 5-color. That's *insane* and artificially limits the amount of deck variety we get for no reason other than flavor.
What's a more sane color identity rule? Every card in your deck must be castable using only mana in your commander's color identity. So hybrid cards can go in monocolored decks, the Bringer of the White Dawn cycle can go in their respective monocolored decks, you can run split cards assuming you can pay for one half, you don't get punished for not being able to pay off-color flashback costs, Obelisk of Alara can go in any deck, Phyrexian mana can go in every deck, etc. It's much more sensible.
Alternatively, you could ditch the deck construction rule and keep only the mana pool rule (if mana would enter your mana pool of the wrong color, it becomes colorless instead.) This is feel-bad if you're running a mind control deck, but is much better than the existing rule that says that hybrid means "and" when it clearly means "or."
As a counterpoint, the commander deckbuilding rules are very specifically designed to make you consider cards that are out of the box. The color identity rules do good work in making you forego some otherwise obvious includes in a deck.
DeleteNow, commander is the one format that cares about this. All other constructed and limited formats can get a lot of mileage out of this given the flexibility of the card and the metagame of the format.
They do so arbitrarily, though.
DeleteIsn't it weird that "add one mana of any color to your mana pool" is okay in every deck, but "add {W} or {U} to your mana pool" isn't?
Isn't it weird that Sen Triplets + Sunglasses of Urza allows an Esper deck to cast red spells?
Isn't it weird that cards like Batwing Brume, which are specifically designed to be playable in monocolor decks but more effective in multicolor decks, can't be cast in monocolor decks?
Isn't it weird that *any* fetchland can be run in *any* deck?
The color identity rules aren't very carefully designed to do anything, as far as I can tell, except enforce a tradition that was established in the mid-90s and has not been seriously reconsidered since. Like other vestiges of that era, like interrupts and mana burn, it needs to be overhauled to be logical and compatible with modern card design.
As far as I can tell, the mana generation rule all on its own is enough to enforce deck diversity. Yes, reanimation base black decks will have a little bit less interesting stuff going on with their targets, but by and large decks will still play cards in their colors without outlawing hybrid cards or off-color activations.
DeleteIn fact, I wrote a whole article about it back in 2011 (unfortunately some of the card tags have stopped working): http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/05/hybridizing-commader/
My opinion is less important because I don't play much Commander, but I do agree with Evan.
DeleteI definitely agree with Evan. "Encouraging players to play with offbeat choices of cards" is a noble goal, but the Commander colour identity rules are neither necessary nor sufficient for it. The fact that there's a "suite of standard EDH staples" demonstrates that it doesn't work. It's just randomly restricting hybrid cards and off-colour cards for no good reason. It's not even like hybrid and off-colour cards are a particularly large proportion of the cardbase.
DeleteNow, if you want to force people to run offbeat choices, something like Tiny Leaders seems more the way to go. Impose serious restrictions and you'll start seeing more serious creativity. Make it that you can only include cards that start with the same letter as your commander, maybe. That'd help prevent the problem of having a suite of standard staples.
Anyway, I'm not really proposing those as serious fixes, just agreeing that the colour identity rules do not accomplish their stated goal by forbidding hybrid and off-colour cards. Any claims otherwise are post-hoc justifications or rationalisations.
One of the other issues with four color legends is that it's really unclear what the flavor is. For the most flavorful cards, that's a big problem. The Nephalim are like weird slug gods. Not a great flavor fit. Personally I'm all for doing 4 color commanders with off color abilities, but I'd keep them a bit closer to defined flavor concepts.
ReplyDeleteGruzul, Golgari Spy UR
Legendary Creature - Goblin Artificer (R)
T: Discard any number of cards, then draw that many cards.
2BG: Whenever a creature card is put into your graveyard this turn, put a 1/1 colorless Insect artifact creature token onto the battlefield.
1/3
We've explored this kind of space a bit on Multiverse. Agrus Kos, Transguild Paragon is intended to work as commander of a RW, RWG, RWB or RWGB deck. A similar design certainly could be made in hybrid, allowing WG, WB, RG or RB as well, which would make the B or G options in his activations more interesting.
ReplyDelete