Cool Card Design of the Day5/16/2016 - That discard is solely black and countermagic solely blue causes those mechanics to more homogenous than most. That's what intrigued me about Jack's 'burn' mechanic: It's a red (arguably) discard mechanic.
How else might red emulate discard?
I have no idea if this is under-costed or not. Grabbing cards at random is significant, but sometimes it does nothing because the target was going to play them anyhow.
The card is pretty clearly unplayable, even in limited, but it certainly cannot get cheaper, because then it starts to get absurd.
ReplyDeleteI think I prefer this in the form of a global Red enchantment that replaces all players'/opponents' draws with exile draw.
I keep trying to figure out a way to put a life payment on getting the cards back, but it gets texty quickly. Maybe Tommy's enchantment idea? But with that, we could just use:
ReplyDeleteLightning Hymn 2RR
Enchantment
Each player's maximum hand size is zero.
(Could also have "Whenever a player plays a card, he or she loses 2 life", but maybe better as-is?)
Though come to think of it I'd probably rather print the card as "max hand=1". Would that be playable?
oof, Maximum hand size zero sounds kinda brutal! I'm reading Tommy's comment as something more like:
DeleteQuick Thoughts 2RR
Whenever an opponent would draw a card, instead that player exiles the top card of his or her library. Until of turn, that player may play that card.
..Which doesn't let you discard your opponent's hand the turn you play it
That's definitely what Tommy meant. Pasteur was just exploring another path.
DeleteBoth cards look cool on paper, but likely win you the game against a Control deck when they fail to counter it. Not sure I want to reward even more Permission.
Oh, glad I sparked something. Yes, that's a fascinating idea. Tommy has a good point, but surely there must be a combination that makes it work. Maybe give opponent the choice instead of random (for an appropriate cost/number of cards)? Or you look at their hand and exile a card (so it's straight-up discard against something they can't afford, but can also force out a counterspell or something they'd hoped to hold on to.)
ReplyDeleteThe randomness is a big part of why it feels red to me.
DeleteIf you give opponent choice, they choose the cards they're going to play next, and all you gain is forewarning.
If you choose, you get cards they can't play next turn, in which case it's Thoughtseize—albeit, for a different subset of cards.
"If you give opponent choice, they choose the cards they're going to play next, and all you gain is forewarning."
DeleteWell, I was hoping to position it at the point where they're *slightly* pushed. Eg. usually they won't play two spells a turn, so if they exile two, they either need to choose one spell they were going to use anyway, or play two smaller spells. 2 might be enough, with a fairly cheap cost, or maybe 3 priced comparatively to black discard?
I'm not sure where that makes it worthwhile, gaining card advantage is usually not red's plan, but it feels like a spell that could exist.
Thinking on that, another approach might be to exile cards for N turns, or until some condition is met, playing into reds short-term-advantage philosophy.
I just want to chime in to say that the logic "but surely there must be a combination that makes it work," has led to the printing of tons and tons of bad designs.
DeleteDesigners especially seem really inclined to believe this, but it is certainly false. There are tons of a priori reasonable ideas that for various reasons fall into unsalvageable developmental chasms, and that is why the rate of return on ideas is so very low.
Of course the only way to ensure failure is not to try.
Delete@Jay: That is such a designer thing to say!
DeleteWe have had Red Card draw, now it's time for red discard!
ReplyDeleteNow the question is, does it realy fit in Reds Role. Reds role is reach and speed, with a bit of board clear. Red should not be able to control the handsize in this matter. Red is more about spending cards, then gaining card advantage.
Red card draw is about spending FAST and NOW. If you make the above ability symetrical, the effect feels more like that you drag your opponent in the same sytuation. This feel is masterfully done by Fevered Visions from SoI. So I would suggest:
Unstable grounds 2R (or even RR)
Enchantment
at the beginning of each player upkeep, that player exiles a card at random. That player may play that card until the end of the turn.
Not sure I agree with all that, but:
DeleteTarget player may discard any number of cards. Then, ~ deals 2 damage to that player for each card in his or her hand.
"exiles a random card from their hand and a random permanent they control" could be fun.
DeleteOoh. Inspired by that statement and the recent waylay discussion:
DeleteLose in Aether {U}{R}
Instant (unc)
Exile target nonland permanent. Its controller may cast it from exile during their next turn for an additional {1}.
Perhaps it could be mono-red:
Lose in Aether {R}
Instant (unc)
Exile target creature. Its controller may cast it from exile during their next turn.
Lose in Aether is super sexy, but I'm sure they won't print it because it is strictly better Unsummon, and WOTC feels they can't print bounce in Red for various constructed reasons (even though they admit that bounce fits perfectly in Red).
DeleteFor what it's worth, I think WOTC needs to give up some of their "We can't let Red do X because it will make Modern/Legacy burn decks too strong" and just start banning Lava Spikes in those formats, but I respect that color pie balancing is an incredibly complex problem with no easy answers for anyone.
I like this. This is virgin territory. I guess it should cost 1R however. Blue should remain the king of unsummon.
DeleteIt is an interesting take. I would guess that you could look at his hand and exile two too, but that would feel less red even though it would make for better interaction.
ReplyDelete