Tuesday, September 22, 2015

Tesla: Our Refinery



Hello again, everybody! Last time, we began the task of finding the candidate mechanics for Tesla, using the expectations of Kaladesh to narrow our search. Now our goal is to both refine these mechanics further, and begin generating commons for the mechanics that we can use for playtesting, which will be coming soon!

Without further ado, here's our list of candidate mechanics:

  • Progress
    • Advance (When you untap ten or more permanents at once, you become advanced.)
    • Advancement (Your advancement is the largest number of generic mana in the cost of a permanent you control.)
    • Battle-Forged (At end of combat, if this creature attacked this turn and has less than N +1/+1 counters on it, put a +1/+1 counter on it.)
    • Board (cost) ((cost): Target creature you boards this vehicle as long as you control both. Board only as a sorcery.)
      • Creatures can only be aboard one vehicle at a time. Vehicles can hold any number of creatures. They grant a bonus or ability to creatures aboard them.
      • Another possibility: Crew (At the beginning of combat, you may tap two untapped creatures you control) and the cards reward you for crewing them. Crew can be used for any operated machinery, not just vehicles.
  • Innovation
    • "Vision pile" — This is more of a broad idea than an actual mechanic at this point. An outside place to hold cards that other cards in the game interact with, to - for example - fetch at a later point. Meant to capture 'research and development'.
      • An example mechanic for the vision pile: Brainstorm (Exile the top card of your library into your vision pile. You may put an artifact card you own from your vision pile into your hand.)
    • Combine (As ~ attacks along with a OTHER PART, you may transform and join them into a single card until end of turn.)
      • Historically troublesome and a competitor with assembling contraptions. Let's see if we can improve this, or even combine them (harhar).
    • Assembling Contraptions — Here are the 'knowns' for Assembling Contraptions:
      • It is an action creatures take, not players. Think along the lines of attacking or blocking, not outlasting.
      • Contraptions are an artifact Subtype. Whether it creates or interacts with Contraptions is unknown, but it's more likely to be the former.
      • A creature can assemble two Contraptions at once rather than one.
    • Tinker (When this enters the battlefield, you may put a +1/+1 or charge counter on an artifact you control, or put a 1/1 colorless Thopter artifact creature with flying onto the battlefield.)
      • Wordiness poses a big problem, but this has a lot of potential. Can we simplify this without losing its spirit?
  • Exploitation and Dominance
    • JusticeCards with justice first declare that something your opponent could do is 'against the law' - the specific 'something' depends on the card. At the beginning of each upkeep, if an opponent broke the law last turn, each card triggers its justice effect.
      • To represent the consul.
    • SurgeWhenever you activate a nonland ability, you may pay (cost). If you do, trigger a cool effect.
      • To represent 'natural magic'.
    • Charge (Put a colorless Canister artifact token onto the battlefield with “Tap, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent. Activate only as a sorcery.”)
      • To represent aether canisters and resource exploitation. Even if we don't do Charge exactly, we'll probably be seeing Canister tokens in some fashion.
This isn't the final list, of course. All of the mechanics above are subject to change, replacement, or removal, depending on how much we can improve them, and how well they hold up in playtesting.

In addition to our goal of refining these mechanics to become the best they can possibly be, another goal is to start generating commons for the mechanics. We want commons both for playtesting, and to see how common-friendly our mechanic is. This means all the commons we make featuring the mechanics should strive to be as simple and elegant as possible. If all your example commons for a mechanic are red-flagged, for any reason, that perhaps means the mechanic isn't common-friendly enough. While not all mechanics have to appear at common, these mechanics are meant to be the themes of the set, so they should!

Alright then! To reiterate: the goal this week is to work to improve the candidate mechanics, and to begin generating common cards for the candidate mechanics for playtesting.

Next time, we'll either discuss playtesting in further detail, or shine a spotlight on any particularly troublesome mechanics, depending on how the conversation goes.

219 comments:

  1. Replies
    1. Let's use this thread to talk about the mechanics overall. :)

      Currently, by my reckoning, here's the color distribution of the candidate mechanics. Note that if a mechanic is doable in all colors, I'll put it in the color we'd emphasize it in. For example, Allies and Level-Up appeared in all colors, but primarily in {R}{G} and {W}{U}{B}, respectively.

      {W}: 5 (Advance, Battle-Forged, Tinker, Justice, Surge)
      {U}: 7 (Advance, Advancement, Vision, Assembling, Tinker, Justice, Charge)
      {B}: 5 (Battle-Forged, Vision, Assembling, Justice, Surge)
      {R}: 5 (Advancement, Battle-Forged, Assembling, Tinker, Surge)
      {G}: 7 (Advance, Advancement, Battle-Forged, Vision, Justice, Surge, Charge)

      As expected, blue is in the lead. Green is also tied for the lead, which might seem counter-intuitive since this is an 'artifact-set', but it makes perfect sense when one recalls that {G}{U} are the colors of 'progress', which is Tesla's big theme.

      White, black, and red are all tied with 5 mechanics. Overall, it seems like the set is pretty nicely balanced so far, which is nice. This is helpful for when we're discussing what colors should get a mechanic, since if we have a few equally-poised options, we can cut based on which needs it more. For example, Justice is more sorely needed in white and black. Blue needs it for flavor reasons - the Consul are {W}{U} - so Justice can probably be cut from green.

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    2. Something to note is that certain versions of Combine, Revolution and Board all use DFCs and that we will have to see which (if any) of these mechanics meet our goals, can't be replicated without DFCs and creates the best gameplay.

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    3. Combine and board seem to be occupying a lot of the same design space.They're both mechanics that we'll be putting on artifacts, they both require more than one card to work, and with us talking about making Combine be more of a pilot and vehicle situation, they're also occupying the same flavor space.

      For now, having both mechanics will allow us to playtest and see which one works better, but unless we make these feel way more different then they do now, eventually we'll have to cut one of them.

      Agree? Disagree?

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    4. Totally agreed Zeno. Especially given Jay's examples below (in the Board thread) that showcase how it can be combined with the Pilot/Vehicle mechanic proposal for Combine.

      Currently in the proposals there are actually quite a few 'redundant' mechanics. (Another example is Tinker/Assemble) The goal is to refine each, test them out, and see which one we like the best.

      Identifying these redundancies and shared ground is good, too, because it lets us work towards finding a way to unify the many mechanics vying for a single spot. Again, as Jay did below.

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  2. Advance
    Thematically, I'd put advance in blue and white.
    Mechanically, I'd put advance in green and white, maybe black.
    Maybe primary in white, secondary in blue and green? Or do we want it in all colors like allies?

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    1. I have a feeling this mechanic - or something in this vein - is exciting enough to be a flagship mechanic that appears in all colors, like allies. We want a good amount of cards that care about you being advanced too, to make it a realistic strategy.

      If not, I think Azorius would be a good fit. I think the Access duel deck made by Reuben Covington was also Azorius.

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    2. Yes it was an Azorious Duel deck. You can find it at:
      http://imgur.com/a/rewhn

      As someone who has tested all of these mechanics, I firstly think that Revolution is by far the best version mechanically but I think one of the worst for the context of Tesla unless we really change the thematic direction of the set.

      Advance this is the cleanest and least format warping of these versions but less exciting and interactive than other options. My playtesting of this has been reasonably positive but I'd expect some sort of supporting mechanic such as Batteries, tokens etc to make this more interesting.

      Access the Machine this work a lot like old style allies in that its a very linear strategy that can warp a format a bit, I found it worked well for a duel deck for that reason but was less successful when I attempted to plan out a set that used it. I think a better version of the could be created similar to what rally did to old style allies. Not that the example card uses an old wording format compared to what I ended up with in the duel deck where I had the Access Granted ability word.
      Note that Access the machine can also lead to repetitive gameplay which is an issue. Maybe I'll take a look at some sort of Monstrous version.

      Industrial Revolution haven't playtested this version ever.

      These mechanics all share the "single trigger" cascading effect which steps on the toes of the Justice mechanic which I think is potentially a better fit for Tesla overall.

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    3. What about Revolution worked well? Could we perhaps capture some of those mechanical positives without using the exact same implementation?

      I don't think Justice and Advance will necessarily step on each other's toes that much. They play in similar themes of 'networking', but one is repeatable, while the other is once-per-game. I think that they both explore similar themes from different angles, which is nice.

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    4. A variety of reasons:
      - Strong Flavor
      - Tapping your creatures creating a "shields down" moment.
      - The ability to stop the revolution giving your opponent and you a subgame of killing/protecting the revolutionaries.
      - Tapping creatures as the cost creates the most interaction with other mechanics. My worry with Industrial revolution and revolution is that including lands just makes it so inevitable and your gathering of other permanents is gonna be such a small chunk in comparison to the lands you play.

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    5. Mm, I similarly had worries about the land issue, but when I suggested avoiding lands, quite a few people pointed out that if it doesn't include lands, it'd punish flooded players and reward ones with an already-good board state.

      I agree with the other points of a shields-down moment and subgame, and tapping creatures is definitely the key to these things.

      I'm wondering whether it wouldn't be possible to just have the Revolutionaries of Tesla be visionaries and inventors, who as long as they exist and work together can create a renaissance, but once they all die it takes work to return to previous greatness. Or would that be too much of a stretch? Handily, many of the people in these categories are also sorta-rebels of the state anyway, so a literal interpretation of Revolution could be liberally mixed in as needed.

      One small issue with using such a form of Revolution is that it'd be focused entirely on creatures. We wouldn't be able to portray artifacts that upgrade alongside the Revolution, which is a shame. If we genericize the Revolution cost to be just 'Tap three untapped creatures', or 'Tap this and two untapped creatures', would it work?

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    6. chat me up on skype or IRC after the weekend madness is over, then maybe I'll take another crack at some new iterations.

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    7. After talking with Reuben, I'm thinking his Revolution mechanic would be a perfect fit. It can simultaneously represent the flavor of mechanical and industrial revolution and outright societal/political revolution. I think it's nice it can occupy both, allowing us to hit two flavor notes with a single mechanic.

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    8. How do we know he didn't hypnotize you?

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    9. You don't. :)

      One (minor) problem I still want to address with Revolution is whether we can somehow make it work on noncreatures. It would be a travesty if we couldn't.

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    10. Countdown to the Revolution {3}
      Artifact
      {T}: Add {1} to your mana pool.
      Advance (When you control three or more advanced permanents or permanents with advance, transform this.)
      //
      It's Beatin' Time!
      Advanced Artifact
      {T}: Add {2} to your mana pool.

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    11. This new version is interesting, but it's also parasitic and has no shields-down moment. The idea of succintly describing the Revolution concept is great though. Could we see:

      Advance (When you untap ten or more permanents or control an advanced permanent, transform this.)

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    12. Everything that transforms is parasitic.

      The shields-down moment is while you're third advance permanent is on the stack.

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    13. Jay: That's not true at all. Reuben's Revolution cards work just fine as a singleton in a deck of other cards - all they need is themselves and two other creatures to tap. This new version of Advance requires three Advance cards in your deck at least, and most likely more, since you want a good chance of having three at once. That's WAY more stringent of a condition.

      Also, a shields-down moment isn't about the ability for your opponent to answer and do something about it (that's interactivity) it's about the opportunity it grants your opponent to attack. Once the third of your version of Advance hits the field, you get your three awesome things and you can immediately use them, attack with them, block with them, etc. An interesting part of the cost of Reuben's Revolution is that by tapping three creatures, you lessen your ability to attack that turn and you give your opponent three less blockers on their turn, thus encouraging them to attack and giving you a moment of vulnerability.

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    14. Couldn't of said it better myself

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  3. Advancement
    Advancement has to be blue. I like it in black too. Maybe green?

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    1. Advancement is very similar to devotion but in the reverse direction. Devotion was "play more of this color", so it made sense in black, alongside green, which naturally meshes well with such a mechanic. Here, we're in the opposite direction - so moving away from black would make sense.

      Since the mechanic synergies well with artifacts and ramp, I'd say red or blue are both in contention as well as green.

      One thing I'd like to note: In Theros, devotion was often used for one-time effects, with only two exceptions below rare. (Karametra's Acolyte and Thunderous Might). I think if we emphasize advancement along the lines of those two cards, rather than one-time effects, we could both differentiate advancement from Devotion further, and also capture the themes of 'looking ahead', since you'd continually want to be increasing your advancement to improve your current permanents with advancement on the battlefield.

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    2. (The reason they were one-time effects, of course, is that they were simpler and required less tracking. I doubt we can find any continuous advancement effects that we could use at common, unfortunately, but we can certainly try.)

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    3. Advanced Blade {2}
      Artifact-Equipment
      Equipped creature gets +X/+0, where X is your advancement.
      Equip {2}

      Networked Sage {1}{U}
      1/2 Artificer
      {T}: Add {1} to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast artifacts spells or activate abilities of artifacts. If your advancement is 4+, add {2} instead.

      Fusion Experiment {1}{R}
      Instant
      ~ deals damage to target creature equal to your advancement.

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    4. Checking the level of advancement, a la Networked Sage, is really cool. I like that.

      Something I thought of earlier today - advancement is actually way easier to check than devotion, no? It's a number on one card, and it's literally written out as a number. While it's not trivial to remember which card you control has the highest advancement, it also doesn't require counting multiple cards like devotion did.

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    5. I agree that Advancement is a lot easier to track than devotion, but I think just having multiple cards that require mentally adjusting its size without a visual reminder like and Aura or +1/+1 counters will be confusing, even if the number itself is easy to track, such as "This creature gets +X/+X where X is the greatest power among creatures you control" or " This creature gets +0/+X where X is your life total."

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    6. We do have a visual reminder. It doesn't even require any processing. One of your permanents is sitting there showing a {4} or so in the upper right corner. Just remember which permanent is your largest, which should be trivial.

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    7. Jay, as I said the number itself is easy to track. And that doesn't help with the examples of problem cards I listed. They also track things that are easy to check and they still make it difficult to process your board situation regardless, if there are many cards that work like that.

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    8. Chah: Oh, I totally agree. I don't think advancement is so much easier than devotion that we can get away with doing more continuous tracking... but I'm also not 100% sure. I'd like to playtest it.

      If we fail, I've been increasingly leaning towards having the mechanic work like a threshold mechanic - your cards get a bonus once your advancement reaches, say, 5.

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  4. Battle-Forged
    Battle-Forged is very similar to renown, so we start from a default of red-white-green. Do we want to mix that up? I feel like it has to be red, and we could make an argument for black over white.

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    1. We can also shift the color emphasis, rather than changing the colors entirely. For example, red got 2 common Renown cards, green got 2 commons, and white got 3 in Origins. So we could emphasize it in red or green. In addition, battle-forged will likely appear on one or two common artifacts, which is another thing we can use to differentiate it.

      I agree that black could definitely make sense.

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    2. Pottus Potentialis {G}
      0/1 Plant
      Battle-Forged 5

      Skittering School {2}{B}
      2/1 Mutant Rat
      Menace, Battle-Forged 1

      Piker Savant {1}{R}
      2/1 Goblin
      Battle-Forged 1

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    3. For the sake of representing non-binary progress, I think we might want to avoid battle-forged 1. But the gameplay is actually really nice, so that might trump the flavor.

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    4. BF 2+ will be tricky. How much should these cards cost?

      1/1 Battle-Forged 2

      2/2 Battle-Forged 2

      3/3 Battle-Forged 2

      1/1 Battle-Forged 3

      Too little and they're unstoppable. Too much and you only enjoy them when you're winning anyhow, or by spending a trick to get them through.

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    5. I feel like if you use the version of Battle-forged that triggers at the end of combat after surviving you could easily have a 1/1 with Battleforged INFINITY for two mana (and one mana if you wanted to push it). See Stromkirk Noble.

      I think it is important for Battleforged cards to start out as not embarrassing creatures and get better.

      2/2 Battle-Forged 2 is a CC cost Uncommon, I think. 3/3 Battle-forged 2 is a 3C Common.

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    6. How do you price these at common?

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    7. To me, that is clearly the wrong question. You aren't forced to print anything particular at common. I think the 3C 3/3 with BF 2 is a great Common. I don't think any price for a 2/2 with BF 2 and no other text is a good common.

      If one wants a 2/2 with BF2 at Common, I think one throws on an additional ability to make it fit. For example, it could be 1R and Can't Block.

      The BF creatures have to be at least moderately respectable to start with, so I wouldn't want many very low cost BF creatures at Common.

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    8. There are no wrong questions. Your answer is what I hoped for and I agree. Most common creatures with BF should have BF 1.

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    9. I tend to agree with Inanimate that BF 1 doesn't convey our theme. I think BF 2 is the minimum, and I think that is okay. What we want to avoid (in my opinion) is printing anything resembling Torpan Freeblade at Common. We can print Rhox Maulers and the like at Common all day long.

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    10. But how many Rhox Maulers does one set need?

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    11. How many common Battle Forged creatures does one set need? I think probably 5 to 10, and there is no reason we should dip into stats like vanilla 1/1's with Battleforged for that.

      I could certainly imagine a 1/1 flier with BF 2 at common. Are you worried about variety or something? You seem concerned, but I can't tell about what.

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    12. I'm concerned that there aren't enough common BF creatures.

      Battle Wurm {6}{G}
      6/6 Battle-Forged 6

      Battle Rhox {4}{G}
      4/4 Battle-Forged 2

      Pottus Potentialis {G}
      0/1 Battle-Forged 5

      Battle Aven {2}{W}
      1/1 Flying, Battle-Forged 2

      Battle Ox {2}{WB}
      1/3, Battle-Forged 2

      Battle Rat {3}{BR}
      3/1 Battle-Forged 3

      Battle Viashino {2}{R}
      2/1 Haste, Battle-Forged 2

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    13. Jay: Renown only had seven cards at common in Origins. While Origins is an odd set, that's a usual number for a new mechanic that only appears in a few colors.So I think we'll be fine, numbers-wise.

      Those example cards are looking great. I think a Battle-Forged with Vigilance could be nice - since we're probably going with Version I, which only triggers on surviving an attack. At common, I think there are two versions of Battle-Forged creatures. Ones that can attack safely without fear of dying too often - Battle Rhox, Battle Ox - and ones that take advantage of openings and tempo - Pottus Potentialis, Battle Aven, Battle Viashino. One or two 'risky rewards', like Battle Rat, seem fine to me. They can act like the usual Gore Swine at common, except they have an occasional upside.

      Two questions I'd like everyone to seriously consider:

      1.) Battle-Forged was originally intended to be an artifact mechanic. Should we still see it on artifact creatures at common? (To me, it seems increasingly like Tesla is going to be shining a spotlight on noncreature artifacts, since that's a great way to differentiate the set from Mirrodin, New Phyrexia, and Esper, which all emphasize their artifact creatures extensively. So the more artifact creatures we include at common, the more difficulty we have.)

      2.) We probably need a new name for Battle-Forged. To me, that name implies outright warfare and conflict which Kaladesh doesn't really have. (I can certainly see a revolutionary war in its future, but we probably don't want to jump to the story's climax in the first set)

      Other possible names: Veterancy; Experience... and that's all I got. :P

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    14. (This is assuming the version we go with is the version that only works on attacks, which I think was settled on? But not hte version I advocated for that you get the counter when it attacks, which is still cleaner imo, but seems not to be en vogue.)

      2U 0/4 Unblockable BF 2

      3W 2/4 BF 2

      4G 4/4 BF 2

      2R 2/2 Haste, BF 2

      3B 1/1 BF 3, 2B: Regenerate

      2R 3/1 Menace, BF 2

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    15. If we're not doing colored artifacts, I imagine we'll want BF on colored creatures (except maybe one artifact creature).

      Maybe the name can have something to do with learning or self-improvement.

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    16. Tommy: Look back to the discussion we had in Battle-Forging Ahead for the reasons - they were mostly related to that version being a bit 'feel-bad' about how small the creature was before it attacks.

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    17. I think Jay did a great job of pointing out the problem of this mechanic without being a naysayer, trying to come up with ways to make it work at that same time.

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    18. The name could be "Field-tested" - was that mentioned before?

      But to be honest, I don't think this mechanic feels very Steampunk. It doesn't seem like a clean fit like "Vampires sucking blood" or "Heroes gaining battle experience."

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  5. Board
    Board is an artifact mechanic and artifacts are colorless in this set.

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    1. This isn't board, but it is vehicles:

      Red Megazord Pilot {R}
      1/1 Pilot
      First Strike

      Roller Sword {2}
      Artifact—Equipment
      Equipped creature gets +1/+1.
      Equip {1}
      Whenever ~ equips a pilot, transform it.
      //
      Roller Megazord
      Artifact—Vehicle
      Equipped creature gets +2/+2.
      Equip {1}
      Whenever ~ becomes unattached, transform it.

      White Megazord Pilot {1}{W}
      1/3 Pilot
      Vigilance

      Sky Wings {2}
      Artifact—Equipment
      Equipped creature has flying.
      Equip {1}
      Whenever ~ equips a pilot, transform it.
      //
      Sky Megazord
      Artifact—Vehicle
      Creatures you control have flying.
      Equip {1}
      Whenever ~ becomes unattached, transform it.

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    2. Here it is with board:

      Green Vehicle Pilot {1}{G}
      2/2 Pilot
      Trample

      APC {2}
      Artifact—Vehicle
      Boarded creatures get +1/+1.
      Board {2} ({2}: Target creature you control unboards all vehicles, then boards this one. Board only as a sorcery.)
      Whenever a pilot boards ~, transform it.
      //
      Elite APC
      Artifact—Vehicle
      Boarded creatures get +2/+2.
      Board {2} ({2}: Target creature you control unboards all vehicles, then boards this one. Board only as a sorcery.)
      Whenever no pilots are aboard ~, transform it.

      Eh.

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    3. And here it is with crew:

      Blue Megatitan Pilot {1}{U}
      1/2 Pilot
      Flying
      As long as ~ crews a vehicle, it has flying.

      Green Megatitan Pilot {2}{G}
      2/2 Pilot
      As long as ~ crews a vehicle, it gets +2/+2.

      Goblin Tank {4}
      Artifact Creature—Vehicle
      Crew 2 (Tap two creatures you control: Transform ~. Crew only before combat.)
      3/3
      //
      Goblin Megatitan
      Artifact Creature—Vehicle
      Menace
      At EOT, transform ~.
      6/6

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    4. Oooh. That crew iteration is very nice.

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    5. The equipment idea I actually had for the Combine mechanic - making the artifact front-faces equipment rather than creatures. Wasn't sure it added much though.

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    6. Working on uncommon iterations on the Operate workshops from below - just imagine (whatever combat stats):

      Airpirate Junk {3}
      Artifact - Vehicle
      Tap a creature you control: Transform Airpirate Junk. If that creature was black, put a work counter on Airpirate Junk.
      ///
      Airpirate Zeppelin
      Artifact Creature
      At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a work counter from Airpirate Zeppelin or transform it.
      Flying
      P/T

      Possible this is permissible at common if it's consistently worded and not too powerful. Could be "transform it unless it has a work counter" (so if you transform it once with the right color it's good for good), or use work counters like ki counters on the Kamigawa flip cards — with a way to keep your creatures pumping fuel into your (vehicle) which then uses them for an effect.

      This again is just working on spaces for raising artifact as-fans while letting them have some color identity, so we can both toe the line more on power levels and give more structure to limited formats, without going into colored-artifact territory. If none of these hoops end up being fun (though I think they very well might be), monohybrid might solve that knot anyway.

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    7. I really like the idea of finding ways for colorless artifacts to have a colored identity. That's clever. Let's keep that in our toolbox for future designs.

      The idea here is interesting, but the flavor is a bit odd. If nobody's crewing the ship (tapped) how is it still movin' around?

      There's a reason we haven't seen Vehicles as creatures in like, a decade - it doesn't make sense for them to be creatures since they have other creatures inside them, piloting them. So the flavor here is a bit odd.

      Still, this is some good stuff and a great start.

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    8. I really like the idea of finding ways for colorless artifacts to have a colored identity. That's clever. Let's keep that in our toolbox for future designs.

      The idea here is interesting, but the flavor is a bit odd. If nobody's crewing the ship (tapped) how is it still movin' around?

      There's a reason we haven't seen Vehicles as creatures in like, a decade - it doesn't make sense for them to be creatures since they have other creatures inside them, piloting them. So the flavor here is a bit odd.

      Still, this is some good stuff and a great start.

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    9. The "Equipment that can be equipped to multiple creatures" approach seems odd to me.

      First of all, it's a Crusade effect except you must pay an initial mana fee for each creature to "subscribe" to the effect. That's fine, but I'm not sure it's very strategic in an exciting way ("Which creature do I give this sword to" is an exciting choice), rather in a mathlike mana-management way. Unless you have multiple vehicles, it's not a choice of whether you want to equip or not. You always want to equip it, it's only a choice of what turn to equip based on what else you want to cast.

      Also, it feels odd for all your creatures to be all receiving a bonus from a vehicle, but some of them are attacking, some of them are blocking, some of them are sitting out of combat. It would be strategic in an exciting way if the equipped creatures all attacked or blocked together.

      Vehicles as creatures is something that could be brought back if it serves a purpose. Nowadays a ship of Pirates would be named something like "Creature-Pirate" but it could be something like "Creature- Pirate Ship." Some people feel differently but I just think of creatures as strategic units you summon and command on the battlefield and I'm fine with summoning ships, juggernauts, and dirigibles, just as I'm fine with summoning walls of fire or even just walls.

      If the vehicle is a creature, it would be easier to make the crew all attack or block together - the vehicle is attacking or blocking, the crew provide some bonus (such as "this creature assigns combat damage to whatever the vehicle can assign combat damage to.) The gameplay flavor match (the crew all fight together as they are on the same mission) would be a worthy reason to have vehicle creatures again.

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    10. Pilots combining with Mechas are probably not the way to go since they would be very parasitic.

      With Mechas combining with other Mechas to form a single card, there was a coolness factor that offsets the drawback of being parasitic.

      But without that kind of payoff (the coolness of 2 cards merging into 1), if we are going to have creatures piloting mechas, any creature should be allowed to pilot the Mechas, not just Pilots.

      As for creature types associated with Mechas, it might be better to have Inventors who can tutor for Mecha parts.

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  6. Vision
    I'm inclined to make vision all colors, but if we're choosing, definitely blue, probably black and green?

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    Replies
    1. More possible vision mechanics:

      Plan B (Exile a spell you control that shares a color with ~: Cast ~ from your vision pile w/o paying its mana cost.)

      Kicker Vision (When you cast ~, you may cast a card in your vision pool that shares a color with it.)

      Burn Science {1}{R}
      Sorcery
      ~ deals 3 damage to target c/p.
      tech—If a spell you control would deal damage and ~ is in your vision pile, you may pay {R}. If you do, that spell instead deals that much damage plus 1.

      Delete
    2. Tech is cool, representing 'tech trees' I assume? I feel like this wouldn't be nearly unified enough for a mechanic, though, and it also has the issue of being tough to track.

      Kicker Vision is really nice. I think that is definitely onto something.

      Plan B is a little too weird, I think. A lot of people don't realize that exiling a spell you control counters it, as the reminder text for Nivmagus Elemental shows.

      I'd prefer it if the mechanic that interacts with the vision pile also puts cards into the vision pile first. That way, the card isn't completely dead if you don't have any other cards putting stuff in your vision pile.

      For this reason, perhaps we should be looking in the direction of, like, keyword actions? Or maybe something like the following for permanents:

      TYPE Foundation (When this card is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, put a TYPE card from your vision pile into your hand.)

      These cards would put stuff into the vision pile as a part of their effect, so they'd always have the chance to get something back out. Not guaranteed, though.

      If we were to do it as a keyword action, it could be something like this:

      Envision Version U (Put a card from your vision pile into your hand if that card costs less than the number of cards in your vision pile.)

      Or this:

      Envision Version I (Put a card from your vision pile into your hand if that card costs less than this.)

      Delete
    3. Also, the colors are definitely at least blue, black, and green. (Which all get card draw and tutoring normally). Red and white are possible if we make them like cantrips.

      Delete
    4. Inevitable Conclusion {2}{U}
      Sorcery
      As an additional cost to cast ~, exile the top 3 cards of your library to your vision pile.
      Put two cards from your vision pile into your hand.

      Petri Death {1}{B}
      Instant
      As an additional cost to cast ~, exile the top two cards of your library to your vision pile.
      Target creature gets -X/-X until EOT, where X is the highest CMC among cards in your vision pile.

      Better Bear {2}{G}
      2/2 Bear
      As an additional cost to cast ~, exile the top three cards of your library to your vision pile.
      ~ ETB w/ a +1/+1 counter on it for each creature card in your vision pile.

      Improvise {R}
      Instant
      As an additional cost to cast ~, exile the top card of your library to your vision pile.
      You may cast cards from your vision pile this turn.

      Delete
    5. Good stuff, Jay. You gave me an idea - maybe some colors are good at getting stuff out of the vision pile, while others prefer tracking things in the vision pile. Could add some interesting decisions and additional archetypes without needing to add much more complexity.

      Delete
    6. Yes, Jay's post has really convinced me of the potential here. I'd like to see this given some more exploration. What are the drawbacks? It's fairly wordy, I guess.

      Inspired Ploy {1}{W}
      Instant
      As an additional cost to cast ~, exile the top two cards of your library to your vision pile.
      Target creature gets +2/+2 until EOT. If you have a creature card in your vision pile, it gains first strike UEOT.

      Heh.. Reminds me a little of ingest/processors. Anything we can do to distance from that a bit more?

      Delete
    7. AlexC: The wordiness and comprehension issues are the biggest ones. This is why I think a standardized mechanic for either half - the 'putting things into vision' or 'interacting things in vision' - would help, as it would reduce the amount of words you need to parse on each card.

      For example:

      Envision N (As an additional cost to cast ~, exile the top N cards of your library to your vision pile.)

      Almost every card we have so far does 2 or 3, so we could further standardize this by removing the N and making it a default number. This would vastly reduce the comprehension issues and also unify the cards a bit more.

      It reminds me of ingest/processors too. I think it's because both this and the exile-theme in BFZ have a singular focus, but LOTS of different ways they interact with that focus. Still, the Processors in BFZ are a lot more focused than the cards we have so far.

      Delete
    8. It isn't a great selling point that this mechanic is so similar to Loucks' mechanic from GDS2 that all the WOTC folk hated. (For the record, my Spike side loves anything that lets me always draw the card I want.)

      Delete
    9. That's definitely something to watch out for.
      For reference:
      http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/118b
      http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/120b

      The good news is, we're not setting up a static ability for the vision pile that complicates the draw step every round.

      Delete
    10. In my last batch of examples, I matched the "envision number" to the card's CMC. Fine with a variable or a static number, though.

      Delete
    11. Thanks for linking Jay! A more responsible me would have done that.

      Delete
    12. Ah, I hadn't even noticed Jay. That's a good way to do it.

      Delete
    13. I understand that the original idea behind Battle-forged was to show progress, with a reward at the end.

      The reason it uses +1/+1 counters is because you wanted counters that have inherent meaning in the game. But having this growing hulk didn't feel very much like research to me - at least not the type that gives you a special sorcery-like effect at the end to represent the fruit of that research.

      When I posted this card, I wanted to show that the vision pile could represent the progress level with a reward at the end:

      Visionary Inventor 1U
      Creature - Human Artificer
      Flying
      Whenever ~ attacks, exile the top card of your library into your Vision pile.
      U, Sacrifice ~: Put an Artifact card from your Vision pile into your hand.
      1/1

      Maybe the commons could all have "When this creature enters the battlefield, exile [number] cards into your vision pile" and "When you cast this Instant/Sorcery, exile [number] cards into your vision pile." I don't think it should be mandatory because people might hate milling themselves to death in certain situations.

      Maybe there is an uncommon cycle of creatures that attack to add to the vision pile every turn. I think it's good to have that interactivity through combat and the 1-card-per-turn progress. I don't think this part should be unified to all be enter-the-battlefield effects.

      I think it's the right balance to have lots of cards that add to the vision pile so that you can feel some progress as the pile grows, while only a few of them can tutor for a card (whether it puts a card into your hand or on top of your library). So I'm against unifying the reward part too.

      Eager Prospector 3R
      Creature - Human Scout
      When ~ enters the battlefield, you may exile the top card of your library into your vision pile.
      If there is a land card in your vision pile, ~ gains haste.
      3/3

      Delete
  7. Combine
    Combine is an artifact mechanic and artifacts are colorless in this set.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. One issue that we'll have to face is that Combine works best with colored artifacts, as seen in previous Tesla playtesting. Will it work if its a colorless archetype? Who knows.

      One way to fix this is to include monohybrid artifacts - which might be enough to differentiate us from the colored artifacts of Esper and New Phyrexia. Another way is to include a 'combine matters' archetype in two colors, to make the Combine cards far more likely to float to those colors.

      Delete
    2. Oh bother, that's a really good point. Combine had awesome gameplay, hitting notes of anticipation and progress as well as making players feel like they were building something. I really enjoyed the gameplay of drafting combine and playing it. But it needs to be dense enough to justify putting DFCs in the set, and I suspect it's a lot harder to justify a colourless DFC in every pack than a coloured one. The "combine matters" cards (such as the proposed Pilots) won't really help this.

      Monohybrid artifacts would help that. But I don't think they'd help with the problems of differentiating from New Phyrexia (their coloured artifacts were all hybrid cost! Albeit life/C rather than 2/C), or ensuring draft variety by making different colours' mecha decks play differently (though that may be a deprecated aim given modern colour-pair-focused set designs).

      Hmm. Maybe Pilots can actually help? Pilots are organic creatures (Humans, Goblins etc) and are clearly coloured. At one point they were an alternative to needing a Core, but would it work if every left-hand-half of a combined mecha is coloured (a Pilot) and every right-hand-half is colourless?

      Delete
    3. Pilots could work, yeah! That sounds really flavorful actually. It does lose some of the fun 'combining artifacts' flavor, but I think the 'OH MY GOD MY CREATURE IS PILOTING A GIANT ROBOT" makes up for it. :P

      Delete
    4. Here are 5 common Core, and 5 common Chassis. First, the quick version:

      Core 1W 2/2 (+1/+0 lifelink)

      Chassis 2W 2/4 (3/5)(gain 2 life.)

      Core U 1/2 (+0/+1 flying)

      Chassis 2U 1/4 (2/5)(scry 1)

      Core 3B 4/2 (+1/+0 menace)

      Chassis 2B 2/3 (3/4)(defending player loses 1 life.)

      Core 1R 2/1 (+1/+0 first strike)

      Chassis 3R 3/3 (4/4)(target creature can’t block this turn.)

      Core 2G 3/2 (+1/+1 trample)

      Chassis 4G 5/4 (6/5)(target creature blocks this turn if able.)

      Next, a more detailed description, which can get tricky. On the Night Side of each card, I marked the rows as A, B, and C. Row A does not connect, and each half can have different abilities there (for these commons, Row A is empty on the Chassis half). Row B and C are all the same on the Core half. Row B is a beginning of combat trigger, and Row C is a beginning of end step trigger. Row B on the Chassis half is a different effect for each. Row C on the Chassis half is the same for all these commons. It transforms the Mecha. The reason it exiles is to match the Combine trigger, and so that if you used a Threaten effect to steal an opponent’s Chassis, your opponent still gets there Chassis back. I took transforming the Mecha off the Combine rules text, because it shortens it, and maybe at higher rarities, we want Chassis that don’t have to transform each turn. Core and Chassis are creature types, rather than supertypes for this version. Combine only appears on the front of Core, so other than that, the Day side of all these commons are vanilla creatures. Here is the Combine reminder text I’m using:

      Combine (At the beginning of combat on your turn, you may exile this core and target chassis you control. If you do, return them to the battlefield transformed under your control as one permanent.)

      And here is the more descriptive version of each design.

      [DAY]
      Life Core 1W (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Core 2/2
      Combine (Reminder text.)
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with White color identity]
      Life…
      Artifact Creature – …
      [A] This creature gets +1/+0 and has lifelink.
      [B] Whenever this creature attacks,…
      [C] At the beginning of the end step…

      [DAY]
      Angelic Frame 2W (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Chassis 2/4
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with White color identity]
      …Angel Mecha
      … Mecha 3/5
      [A]
      [B]…you gain 2 life.
      [C]… exile this Mecha, then return each half to the battlefield transformed and tapped under its owner's control.

      [DAY]
      Gravity Core U (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Core 1/2
      Combine (Reminder text.)
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Blue color identity]
      Gravity…
      Artifact Creature – …
      [A] This creature gets +0/+1 and has flying.
      [B] Whenever this creature attacks,…
      [C] At the beginning of the end step…

      [DAY]
      Cryptic Frame 2U (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Chassis 1/4
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Blue color identity]
      …Sphinx Mecha
      … Mecha 2/5
      [A]
      [B]…scry 1.
      [C]… exile this Mecha, then return each half to the battlefield transformed and tapped under its owner's control.

      [DAY]
      Tomb Core 3B (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Core 4/2
      Combine (Reminder text.)
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Black color identity]
      Tomb…
      Artifact Creature – …
      [A] This creature gets +1/+0 and has menace.
      [B] Whenever this creature attacks,…
      [C] At the beginning of the end step…

      [DAY]
      Demonic Frame 2B (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Chassis 2/3
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Black color identity]
      …Demon Mecha
      … Mecha 3/4
      [A]
      [B]…defending player loses 1 life.
      [C]… exile this Mecha, then return each half to the battlefield transformed and tapped under its owner's control.

      Delete
    5. [DAY]
      Flame Core 1R (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Core 2/1
      Combine (Reminder text.)
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Red color identity]
      Flame…
      Artifact Creature – …
      [A] This creature gets +1/+0 and has first strike.
      [B] Whenever this creature attacks,…
      [C] At the beginning of the end step…

      [DAY]
      Draconic Frame 3R (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Chassis 3/3
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Red color identity]
      …Dragon Mecha
      … Mecha 4/4
      [A]
      [B]…target creature can’t block this turn.
      [C]… exile this Mecha, then return each half to the battlefield transformed and tapped under its owner's control.

      [DAY]
      Assault Core 2G (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Core 3/2
      Combine (Reminder text.)
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Green color identity]
      Assault…
      Artifact Creature – …
      [A] This creature gets +1/+1 and has trample.
      [B] Whenever this creature attacks,…
      [C] At the beginning of the end step…

      [DAY]
      Serpentine Frame 4G (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Chassis 5/4
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Green color identity]
      …Hydra Mecha
      … Mecha 6/5
      [A]
      [B]…target creature blocks this turn if able.
      [C]… exile this Mecha, then return each half to the battlefield transformed and tapped under its owner's control.

      Delete
    6. Those are all way too complex for common, I think. For commons we could - and probably should - remove the attack-triggers and the "This creature gets" bonus.

      Mecha at common need to be quite simple - the previous Tesla playtest had great examples. Mecha are already a confusing mechanic and so they should be french vanillas, both frontside and backside. And it should be easy to guess what their backside should be, which is why they all kept the same abilities, and just changed their body.

      Delete
    7. I'm going to set complexity aside, for now, because I don't know if you mean board complexity, comprehension complexity, strategic complexity, or just word count.

      The attack trigger was fun during playtesting, but I think we just had the wrong sorts of abilities. We had "Target creature gets -2/-0", "Target creature gets +0/+2", and "Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token onto the battlefield." Those effects are too much at common, so I swapped them for common attack triggers we see regularly now. If you move the attack trigger to higher rarities, you'll have to put both trigger AND effect all on a left side or right side. Otherwise you won't be able to play common halves with higher rarity halves.

      The way I envisioned it, you can plug different triggers into different effects. At higher rarities, a trigger could be paying mana and sacrificing a creature. Or it could be a death trigger. Ditto with effects. I suppose to do it your way, you could make a rule that says a Mecha doesn't have an ability unless both halves are plugged into something. So if a common with a blank Row B is mismatched with a rare with an effect in Row B, your player knows to ignore it. But that makes trouble if you want to put simple keywords in Row A. Because then you're communicating, "Ignore a Mecha effect if there isn't text on both side, unless that text is a complete concept, like flying, or a p/t boost." Lack of consistency is confusing too.

      Regardless of the Row B trigger and effect, you really should keep the keyword and p/t bonus on the Core side. I figured out pretty quickly that both the left and the right side need to contribute to p/t in some way, otherwise the possible combinations just aren't that interesting. There are only a few p/t options at common. Assuming there are 5-6 Chassis at common, you really limit the impact of combining. Also, I discovered it's important for balancing. If all the p/t is coming from one card, you've got to price it much higher, making the opportunity for a player to have both halves in play at once narrower. Another thing to consider is the cost of trading two creatures on the board for one. You kind of have to make the combined Mecha greater than the sum of its parts. That's why I left the keywords off the front of the Cores. I don't want a player to look at their 2/2 core and their 3/3 chassis and NOT want to combine them. Having all the fun stuff on the backside is crucial to getting the flip. For Limited, it also, keeps these cards in the hands of the players drafting them, not anyone in White, looking to nab a 2/2 lifelink.

      I trust your design judgment, but playtest the complex version and pare down. If you don't playtest the fun version, you're not going giving Combine a fair shot.

      Delete
    8. I also realize that the newly combined Mecha needs to be given haste or they can't ever attack.

      Combine (At the beginning of combat on your turn, you may exile this core and target chassis you control. If you do, return them to the battlefield transformed under your control as one permanent with haste.)

      Delete
    9. Excellent points, Nich. Very well-put and I hadn't thought of many of the issues you brought up. Thank you for explaining everything so well.

      Also, I forgot to compliment you for thinking to have the front-sides all be vanilla with the exception of Combine. That's great.

      I agree we should start complex and pare down, I'm just noting that my gut feeling is that these are complex, so we might want to begin looking for simpler ways to do it.

      I think if we cut the last row - the "un-transform" trigger at end of turn - we could greatly simplify the mechanics. Remind me again why we need this row? I feel like I'm missing something important about why it's there. To me, it just feels like a sad drawback, having to watch my mecha disassemble every turn and never be able to block.

      I still think we should aim to make this simpler, but I can see the value behind each of your decisions. Let's see if we can capture those important goals while reducing the comprehension complexity / wordiness. (Board complexity looks fine, though interpreting the P/T at a glance could be tricky)

      Delete
    10. I definitely think the un-transform trigger is unnecessary and contributes to the wordiness. I don't see why it's needed, and nor do I see why you're exiling-then-returning rather than just combining while on the battlefield (which keeps +1/+1 counters, sorcery-speed combat buffs like Tower Above or Hunter's Prowess, etc).

      I am however very impressed with the arguments for keeping the front sides vanilla. I'm utterly convinced there.

      The p/t bonuses strike me as clunky. I can see that the number of combined p/ts at common will be limited without them, but that doesn't strike me as an awful problem. If someone's playing a GB deck then they might have one or two of the G common chassis, one or two of the G common chassis, and probably one or two uncommon chassis too. That's 3+ different sizes possible in one limited deck, and with a varied range of keyword abilities mixed in as well. That doesn't sound too few to me, and so I'd argue against static abilities like "This creature gets +0/+1". That removes your line C and most of the words from your line A, which is a drastic reduction in complexity for these commons.

      I do think it's important to have the mix-and-match triggered abilities. That captures a lot of the fun of building your own mecha. The way we playtested last time, all the commons had trigger condition "When this transforms" (i.e. one-off) and all the uncommons had "Whenever this attacks" (i.e. repeatable). That seemed like a reasonable approach to me.

      Two more things: Last time we have combine a weird rider something like "If the combined mecha would die or be exiled, the player whose turn it is chooses one half to be killed/exiled and the other half gets bounced". This was obviously to alleviate the card-disadvantage problem of getting the mecha killed, which isn't quite the same thing as Nich's point about a 2/2 and a 3/3 often being better than a 5/5. We do want to consider something like that, though that particular implementation was somewhat confusing and fiddly.

      And also, haven't we lost the point which Inanimate mentioned at the start of the thread, that Kaladesh artifacts should normally be colourless? The issue of coloured mecha parts feels like one of the biggest losses/problems of setting Tesla on Kaladesh.

      Delete
    11. Yeah, we do need to focus on the colorless issue more than anything else. I think the simplest idea is the colored Pilot / colorless Chassis mentioned earlier.

      While I was thinking about this issue I realized that we could look to the Thopter-generators in Origins for inspiration. Note that Origins' Kaladesh feels distinctly artifact-centric, but there are very few actual artifact creatures in the set. They achieve this, of course, by having their colored creatures and spells create artifacts as well - thus letting them use color limitations alongside the flavor of colorless artifacts.

      So, how do we apply this to the Mecha problem? Obviously we can't just have colored-creature Pilots bring their own colorless-artifact Chassis onto the battlefield like Origins did. But perhaps having an essential half of the equation be colored will create the same solution we saw in the Tesla playtests.

      Or, as I mentioned earlier, there's always the possibility of monohybrid. I think it feels sufficiently different from previous artifact sets, but of course that's just my opinion. One thing I like about monohybrid is that it lets anyone take a Core/Chassis if they really need it, but it heavily dis-incentivizes such picks. That seems nice.

      Delete
    12. I thought we were worried about Auras and what would happen to them when the creatures combined. I thought the Magic Origins DFC's had a good solution. But if that's not a thing, transform and combine is fine with me.

      I thought the purpose of transforming at end of each turn was to allow for flexibility, and to reduce risk of getting 2-for-1'd (by sorcery speed removal).

      [BTW, I made a typo above, Angelic Frame was supposed to be 3W not 2W.]

      I'm also fine with monobrid.

      Combine (Whenever this core and a chassis you control attack, you may transform them into a single permanent until end of turn.)

      [DAY]
      Life Core 1(2/W) (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Core 2/2
      Combine (Reminder text.)
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with White color identity]
      Life…
      Artifact Creature – …
      [A] This creature gets +1/+0 and has lifelink.
      [B] Whenever this creature attacks,…

      [DAY]
      Angelic Frame 3(2/W) (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Chassis 2/4
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with White color identity]
      …Angel Mecha
      … Mecha 3/5
      [A]
      [B]…you gain 2 life.

      [DAY]
      Gravity Core (2/U) (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Core 1/2
      Combine (Reminder text.)
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Blue color identity]
      Gravity…
      Artifact Creature – …
      [A] This creature gets +0/+1 and has flying.
      [B] Whenever this creature attacks,…

      [DAY]
      Cryptic Frame 2(2/U) (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Chassis 1/4
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Blue color identity]
      …Sphinx Mecha
      … Mecha 2/5
      [A]
      [B]…scry 1.

      [DAY]
      Tomb Core 3(2/B) (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Core 4/2
      Combine (Reminder text.)
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Black color identity]
      Tomb…
      Artifact Creature – …
      [A] This creature gets +1/+0 and has menace.
      [B] Whenever this creature attacks,…

      [DAY]
      Demonic Frame 2(2/B) (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Chassis 2/3
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Black color identity]
      …Demon Mecha
      … Mecha 3/4
      [A]
      [B]…defending player loses 1 life.

      [DAY]
      Flame Core 1(2/R) (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Core 2/1
      Combine (Reminder text.)
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Red color identity]
      Flame…
      Artifact Creature – …
      [A] This creature gets +1/+0 and has first strike.
      [B] Whenever this creature attacks,…

      [DAY]
      Draconic Frame 3(2/R) (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Chassis 3/3
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Red color identity]
      …Dragon Mecha
      … Mecha 4/4
      [A]
      [B]…target creature can’t block this turn.

      [DAY]
      Assault Core 2(2/G) (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Core 3/2
      Combine (Reminder text.)
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Green color identity]
      Assault…
      Artifact Creature – …
      [A] This creature gets +1/+1 and has trample.
      [B] Whenever this creature attacks,…

      [DAY]
      Serpentine Frame 4(2/G) (Common)
      Artifact Creature – Chassis 5/4
      ///
      [NITE] [Artifact with Green color identity]
      …Hydra Mecha
      … Mecha 6/5
      [A]
      [B]…target creature blocks this turn if able.

      Delete
    13. The new iteration is looking a lot nicer. For playtesting purposes we can probably convert the Cores to Pilots by just replacing their monohybrid mana in their cost.

      Should the front-faces of Cores have the same keyword as the back-face? That would make sense and mean players need to memorize less information, but at the same time it also makes sense that they can't access their powerful abilities without transforming.

      Delete
    14. I found this paragraph of Nich's pretty convincing:

      > Another thing to consider is the cost of trading two creatures on the board for one. You kind of have to make the combined Mecha greater than the sum of its parts. That's why I left the keywords off the front of the Cores. I don't want a player to look at their 2/2 core and their 3/3 chassis and NOT want to combine them. Having all the fun stuff on the backside is crucial to getting the flip. For Limited, it also, keeps these cards in the hands of the players drafting them, not anyone in White, looking to nab a 2/2 lifelink.

      Delete
    15. Ah yeah, I'd forgotten about that. That is good reasoning.

      Delete
    16. Bringing lpaulsen's discussion about mecha not fitting Kaladesh back up here into the combine / mecha thread:

      The point is sadly well made. I love the idea, gameplay, experience of everything about mecha. But they are decidedly not a natural fit for Kaladesh, flavour-wise. Inanimate said "I thought mechs might be justifiable as consul weaponry designed for overzealous peacekeeping and riot control, but you make a compelling argument, Ipaulsen. Maybe it's more of a Mirrodin thing?"

      It'd be a real shame to lose what was at one point the defining iconic thing about Tesla. But design marches on. Combine definitely deserves a chance to shine in some custom set, but maybe Tesla isn't that set any more. In the same way that no scene is worth a line and no movie is worth a scene, no set is worth a mechanic.

      This is compounded by the way that we reckoned mecha would play best in Limited if they had different colour identities so different players would take green mecha parts to those that would take blue mecha parts, but we're very keen to keep the artifacts on Kaladesh colourless. Twobrid costs like {3}{2/G} don't actually address either half of that problem.

      I think the move to Kaladesh, while excellent and well-chosen in many ways, is looking like it's going to have as collateral damage the exclusion of the mecha/combine mechanic. That's a really sad state of affairs, but it's the way things look to me.

      Delete
    17. I am intrigued by Assemble, and if it works, it might very well push out Mechas.

      However, I'm not sure why Mechas can't be part of Kaladesh flavorwise. Also, I don't think we need to give up Mechas for color identity reasons. Some thoughts:

      - I don't think we should do twobrid on Mechas since Mechas already have a lot of quirkiness.

      - Color identity of Mechas for drafting: I don't think it is necessary. In the last testing I did (which was before the Combine version) we drafted with two Mecha parts in each pack, mostly colored. With that number, we could not only draft a Mecha deck, we could do so comfortably. Although this is just my impression, I felt it could work with 1.5 cards per pack, if there is such a thing. We didn't get around to narrowing down the number from there.

      One problem I felt with that setup though was monotony - even though there were 2 Mecha parts per color, it felt like you would get similar combinations each game in a 2-color deck.

      We could test drafting with 1 colorless Mecha per pack, with ample tutoring through Vision or another such searching mechanic. The searching cards can increase the virtual density of Mecha in your deck. And if you start draftng a lot of Vision cards as part of your Mecha deck and you're not getting enough Mecha cards, you can shift the focus to doing something else with your Vision cards.

      For diversity, the guaranteed DFC in the pack could all be Colorless Uncommons or Rares. If they are mostly Commons, you would see the same 6 Common cards very often like in Innistrad. If they are in the Uncommons slot, there could be around 20 or more different Uncommons.

      - I wish I had video-recorded previous testing I've done, and I recommend it for those who can easily do so.

      Delete
    18. I think we should definitely test out colorless Mecha. If it ends up not being an issue, that'd be great.

      I'm not so sure that Kaladesh can't do Mecha flavorfully - I can't imagine another plane that could do it better, even - but if we can't justify robots that combine, we can probably justify machinery that combines in general. (Contraptions)

      Delete
  8. Assemble
    The things that will be assembled are colorless artifacts, but what colors do assembling? Clearly red. Probably blue. Maybe all colors.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is one place where thematics are super helpful. Assemble is meant to represent the free-spirited outlaw artificers. These are clearly red/blue, as seen in Kaladesh. If we extend the mechanic to a third color, it'd be black, because they value independence and owning their own inventions.

      Delete
    2. As seen in Kaladesh in Magic Origins*, is what I meant to say.

      Delete
    3. So, here are some quick slapdash ideas for Assembling:

      1.) Creatures with Assemble can assemble instead of attack. When they do, they are blocked like normal, but by any defending player. If they are unblocked, they pull an Artifact - Contraption that costs less than their power from outside the game onto the battlefield. (Trample doesn't do anything for these dudes since they only care about 'blocked/unblocked').

      To assemble two Contraptions instead of one means they basically get double strike when unblocked.

      2.) Artifact - Contraptions with Assemble all start with a "Work in Progress" front-face. Assembling allows you to tap creatures at sorcery speed to put counters on the artifact. When it hits a certain amount, it transforms to its "Completed" side. The Contraption subtype means they're easier to refer to than "artifacts with assemble" - you can just saw "Contraptions'.

      To assemble two Contraptions instead of one means that, when the creature is tapped to assemble the Contraption, it can put a counter on another Contraption as well.

      3.) Creatures with Assemble put an Artifact - Contraption token onto the battlefield attached to them when they enter the battlefield. When they leave the battlefield, their Contraption goes with them. Contraption tokens act like a mixture between enchantment and equipment, giving colorless-appropriate bonuses. Creatures with Assemble, then, basically let you 'modify' them every time they enter play, giving them a lot of flexibility.

      Contraption tokens come in around five or six varieties, and would be in every pack, double-sided, to ensure that everyone gets as many Contraptions as they need.

      To assemble two Contraptions instead of one means you get two attached tokens when you enter the battlefield instead of one.

      4.) To assemble a Contraption means to put either an Artifact - Contraption token onto the battlefield, or to put the creature's Component onto that Contraption. Every creature has their own unique Component (in a special part of their textbox) which they can grant to Contraptions. For example:

      Goblin Rigger {1}{R}
      Creature - Goblin Rigger (Common)
      When ~ enters the battlefield, assemble. (Put a colorless Contraption artifact onto the battlefield, or grant this creature's component ability to a Contraption you control.)
      [COMPONENT — Sacrifice this artifact: This artifact deals 1 damage to target creature or player.]
      1/1

      This is a really rough sketch of the idea, but you get the idea. Assemblers can create new Contraptions, and then upgrade existing contraptions as they see fit. The reason this relies on the specific creature - and thus has creatures assemble twice, rather than players - is because the component is dependent on the indiviudal creature. (It's similar to how its the creature that evolves, as seen on Renegade Krasis - it's dependent on which creature you're talking about.)

      Component overlay tokens would appear in packs - as halves on a perforated card, perhaps - and have a blank text box that you can write a note in, to better keep track of it.

      Perhaps there are only like, six unique Component effects, so Components could just be their own kind of token as well, like in the last example.

      -

      Alright, that's enough weird ideas for now. I know these ideas are REALLY weird, and many of them have logistical issues. But I'm presenting them because I think they have interesting ideas, and we could perhaps use those ideas as inspiration for simpler, more feasible ideas.

      Delete
    4. Kudos on the sideways thinking in option 1, using the other meaning of 'assemble.' It's a small stretch to say that a creature assembles others, though, and "assembling a contraption" for that meaning of 'assemble' is a big stretch.

      Option 2 is very workable, but disappointing.

      Option 3 feels more insular than I'd expect.

      I like option 4. It might prove too wordy for common. Here's a simpler version:

      When Goblin Rigger enters the battlefield, assemble an artifact.
      Artifacts assembled by Goblin Rigger have “Sacrifice this artifact: This artifact deals 1 damage to target creature or player.”

      So you can assemble any artifact (but you need to have one already), and if you have two artifacts with subtype contraption, you can assemble both at once via Steamflogger Boss.

      As for tracking that, what if most boosters include a card with three horizontal perforations and each of the 8 possible assemble abilities on a face of one of the four sections?

      ╔═══╗
      ╠═══╣
      ╠═══╣
      ╠═══╣
      ╚═══╝

      Delete
    5. Your version of option 4 is alright, but the 'Contraption' part has to matter, I think. So given your idea, why do some things have the subtype 'Contraption'? I always assumed it'd be related to Assembling intimately... but maybe it isn't. Maybe it's just a new card type that debuts in the block, and that Steamflogger Boss interacts with particularly well. Hm...

      Delete
    6. In this model, artifacts with the contraption subtype could either just be very simple and inexpensive, or more resilient, or they could grant particular bonuses for assembly.

      Spring Framework {0}
      Artifact-Contraption
      Whenever ~ is assembled, untap target permanent.

      Proto Chassis 1000 {1}
      Artifact Creature-Contraption
      Whenever ~ is assembled, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
      1/1

      Delete
    7. Can Artifact Creatures share subtypes with Artifacts in general? I'm not exactly sure. That seems important when it comes to Contraptions.

      I feel like that doesn't justify its existence enough. Contraptions should be a natural thing, and not feel like they're called Contraptions just to satisfy our requirements. Still, it's definitely doable as Traps and Curses show.

      Delete
    8. They can: Any permanent of one or more types can have any subtypes of any of its types. Should they remains a fair question.

      Agree with the trap/curse metaphor.

      Delete


    9. How have we never made this connection before?…
      Remember cogs/gears? Those are artifacts we're specifically trying to combine. To assemble, if you will. What if they're good on their own, but amazing after we get a rigger to assemble them together?

      Delete
    10. OR! Or or or:

      'Assemble' is how we _transform_ contraptions into devices.

      Delete
    11. So, what you're proposing is that Contraptions are cards that work fine on their own, but by Assembling a Contraption, you transform it and combine it with another Contraption?

      I see two questions I want this idea to answer:

      1.) Why is the creature assembling the contraption, and not the player?

      2.) If you're assembling a Contraption, that sounds like you're only transforming one of them. But to combine cards, you need to transform two cards.

      -

      I don't know if this is what you meant by your last comment or not, but transforming contraptions into devices makes me think of things like Hero's aeliopile (the first steam engine, used as a toy). A contraption, a random thing that wasn't seen as important, can be 'transformed' into a device, a powerful tool for progress... if the right person comes along.

      Again, though, we need justification for why its the creature assembling, and not the player.

      Delete
    12. Contraptions 1) got me thinking about ninjutsu and attacking the unknown, but I think I found a way to Assemble.

      Steamboiler Artillery {4}
      Artifact - Contraption
      Assemble (Creatures you control may attack contraptions you control if able, and deal damage in the form of work counters.)
      T: CARDNAME deals damage to target creature equal to the number of work counters on it.

      The big question is whether we want other players to be able to block the assembly-ing creatures... but I'd start from the simplest (can't) and try it out. Work counters can count up like this, be removed to pay for abilities, OR, we can use the level-up frame.

      Steamboiler Cannonade {4}
      Artifact - Contraption
      Assemble (Creatures you control may attack contraptions you control if able. If they do, they deal damage in the form of work counters.)
      1-5: T: CARDNAME deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
      6+: T: CARDNAME deals 3 damage to target creature or player.

      This gives us a reason for creatures to do the assembly, and lets "Assemble two contraptions" mean "deals its (+1/+0'd) power in work counters to an additional contraption this turn". Not allowing blocks might seem like it limits interaction, but it's still pretty easy to interact with creatures, and using "attack" language, we make it a real cost, because it leaves your life total vulnerable as well.

      Delete
    13. I shouldn't have used the word 'combine' as I wasn't referring to our combine mechanic; I just meant the cogs/gears we've played with in the past that interact or attach to one another. We would transform one at a time (unless Boss'd) into better cogs.

      We make creatures do it as a hoop to jump through: Not only do you have to have a creature, but it has to have assemble, and you have pay whatever its activation cost is. That hoop helps justify an exciting payout.

      Yes. Contraptions start out cute, with minor utility, but devices are powerful, with serious utility.

      Delete
    14. Well the problem is that simply using creatures as a 'hoop to jump through' is fine, design-wise, but it doesn't necessarily result in creatures being the ones assembling. However, Exploit has precedence for this nonstandard wording, so...

      Delete
    15. Pasteur, I think phrasing it as attacking just doesn't come out right. It reads really weirdly to me. I am happy to see someone else remembered my Explorer mechanic, though. :)

      Delete
    16. Assemble (Creatures you control have "T: Put work counters equal to this creature's power on target contraption." Assemble only as a sorcery.)

      How about this? The flavor fits, it works within the rules, and it's developable. If we want to use the level-up frame, it fits at the same text size as the leveler reminder text. We can show (inert machine)(machine starting to work)(machine fully functional) easily, and it's a matter of your creature's effort and time. Synergizes with untapping-canisters and power-boosting.

      Delete
    17. A more functional iteration of my second proposal. It's definitely doable.

      Delete
  9. Tinker
    Tinker could be all colors, though I wouldn't make any green commons and at most one red. Feels very blue and fairly black.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think Tinker makes the most sense in white. The +1/+1 counters are tricky in any color but green, while the 1/1 fliers are tricky in green, which is pretty amusing.

      I think that since the new version of Tinker only rewards artifacts, this helps a lot. I'd say that this makes blue/red more realistic options.

      So, overall: primary white, secondary red and blue?

      Delete
    2. Tinker Bear {1}{W}
      1/1 Soldier
      Tinker

      Tinker Stalwart {2}{W}
      1/2 Knight
      Vigilance, tinker

      Tinker Mastodon {4}{W}
      2/4 Elephant
      Tinker

      Tinker Gobbo {2}{R}
      2/1 Goblin
      Tinker

      Tinker Titan {4}{R}
      3/3 Giant
      Tinker

      Tinker Aven {2}{U}
      1/2 Bird
      High-Flying, Tinker

      Tinker Wisp {U}
      0/1 Illusion
      Tinker

      Eh.

      Delete
    3. Mm, 'eh' agreed. As Tinker currently stands, we wouldn't see it on anything more complex than a french vanilla at common, since it is a whopping five lines of text on its own.

      Also, could Tinker be a keyword action rather than a thing that only appears on creatures?

      Delete
    4. I think it would definitely be a keyword action.

      Delete
    5. If we do end up making a bunch of tokens (either thopters, canisters, or both), consider:

      Consume—Sacrifice a permanent: EFFECT.

      or

      Fully Operational—As long as you control 5 or more artifacts, ~ has ABILITY.

      Delete
    6. Fully Operational is just Metalcraft+. I'm not sure people would be too enthused by that.

      Consume is a neat idea, but is it doable as a mechanic? Especially without a nonland clause.

      Delete
    7. Ha ha. I forgot about metalcraft!

      Before exploit I would've though consume was unworkable. Now I'm less certain. Especially if we fill the set with on-trashed triggers.

      Delete
    8. Could work well as a Dominance/Exploitation mechanic for sure.

      Delete
    9. I want Tinker to create a type of gameplay where you can make small but frequent creature-boosts over the course of the game, and where you have fun choosing what to boost.

      I feel that if every card has a chance to grow and you're constantly making choices about which one to grow (a power 1 flyer feels very different from a power 2 flyer, a 1/3 deathtouch feels very different from a 2/4 deathtouch, and you're choosing which one you want), it will be very a different gameplay from the way you grow things in normal Magic: in most sets creature-boosting is accompanied by a big risk or a big mana investment, and the boost is +2/+2 or better to be worth that risk or investment. What if you had small, freebie boosts?

      I think that will make Kaladesh play very differently, the way Bestow made Theros play very different, but in a way that represents the feel of this world.

      I could be wrong but if we want to try it out, I suggest this: We don't need to make a Duel Deck for this version of Tinker, rather, take Duel Decks for other Kaladesh themes, and just assume each "normal" card has Tinker on it. For example, Divination would become "3U, Draw 2 cards, Tinker (Put a +1/+1 counter on another target creature, or put a 1/1 artifact Thopter creature token with flying onto the battlefield.)"

      We can see how it feels when there are multiple opportunities to dish out freebie +1/+1 counters over the course of the game.

      If it turns out that it feels like a progressive world/world where people wear gadgets to enhance themselves/world where people and things can be modified to your will, even if the mechanic itself has problems we can try to capture that gameplay feel in another way.

      Once again, the intended "flavor through gameplay" is that here, things can constantly change over the course of the game, and you can have fun choosing what you want to grow.

      I do think the 1/1 thopter is making it hard to balance this as a "freebie" mechanic and is leading to overcosted creatures. That is why I originally suggested 0/2 Thopters. I guess we can't do that because a token without equal power and toughness that has +1/+1 counters on it would be hard to represent with coins or dice. I don't know how to fix that yet.

      I also think the one that only puts counters on artifacts has a stronger flavor in terms of pure words.

      But in terms of crafting the play environment, or the amount of fun choices it provides, the one that puts counters on any creature is a completely different thing altogether and I hope we can try it. The creatures with Tinker can be shown to be gadgeteers through the art and names.

      Delete
    10. For this design goal, I'd try focusing Tinker by eliminating the creature option:

      Augment (You may put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.)

      Delete
    11. The reason I suggested artifacts-only was to fix color pie issues we were having with the mechanic - the flavor-bonus was a nice thing. If we remove thopters as an option, it becomes simple - it's just white/green and a little blue. If we include thopters, green is lost.

      Delete
    12. Oh, and the other issue is if it makes Thopters people will want it in red due to Origins.

      Delete
  10. Justice
    Justice is clearly white. It could be blue ala Azorius, but I'm not convinced it needs to be. It could easily be black since laws are often corrupt or abusable. Oddly, it could also be green since green believes in (a natural) order.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Kaladesh's flavor pushes for me to make this white/blue, as it seems that the consul's agenda - at least, as presented by Baral in Fire Logic - is very white/blue.

      I agree that it could easily be black or green as well. (A four color mechanic? :P)

      Delete
    2. I love the way Justice reads, and would love to hear experiences of anyone who's playtested it in any of its various incarnations. I think the "Dark Justice" iteration got some playtesting on another site, as I recall? Does anyone know how that went?

      Delete
    3. I've had 1 duel deck style online playtest session with it that was fairly positive. Tracking different triggers is a potential issue as well as balancing how often/powerful the punishments are.

      I personally prefer "Laws" that the opponent have control of but that they have to do compared to more static ones like the example given.

      Also note I like the idea of Thopters/Artifacts that have justice to enforce the "big brother is watching" aspect of the consuls.

      I'll post some example commons later.

      Delete
    4. What do you mean by "the opponent have control of but they have to do?" Something like "Blocking creatures you control is against the law"?

      Delete
    5. Some examples, these may end up being too narrow however:

      - Casting a spell that targets a creature you control is against the law.
      - Casting spells during combat is against the law.
      - Attacking with three or more creatures is against the law.
      - Drawing more than one card per turn against the law.
      - Casting two or more spells a turn is against the law.
      - Blocking a creature with two or more creatures is against the law.
      - Gaining life is against the law.
      - Blocking creatures you control is against the law
      - Revealing cards is against the law

      Delete
    6. Mm. Those all look pretty good. The first is probably to complex for common, and the last too narrow, but everything else seems pretty nice. Perhaps punishing blocking with anything is a little too harsh for common, though.

      That's probably enough design space for common, thinking about it - we really don't need more than, say, 8-ish cards at common for this mechanic, no? And I still think we could do with a few 'repeated' laws at common to help simplify things and have people need to track less laws.

      Delete
    7. Justice seems very neat, but I'm now wondering if it's so representative of Kaladesh that we need it as a named mechanic. Maybe there's just a cycle?

      Delete
    8. Yeah, I've previously mentioned the consul doesn't necessarily need a mechanic. A {W}{U} 'surveillance Thopter' archetype (for example) with cards like Thopter Spy Network would similarly capture the consul's oppressive feel.

      I don't see how we could just do justice on a cycle of cards, though - doesn't it need the 'against the law' vocabulary to work?

      Delete
    9. Some more common laws in addition to reuben's:

      Dealing combat damage to ~ is against the law.
      Having more life than you is against the law.
      Having more cards in hand than you is against the law.
      Controlling more creatures than you is against the law.
      Putting +1/+1 counters on creatures you control is against the law. (depending on other mechanics, though this is probably broad enough to be fine)
      Putting two or more creature tokens onto the battlefield per turn is against the law.
      Countering a spell you control is against the law. (actually probably too narrow)
      Exiling a permanent you control/a card you own is against the law. (Eldrazi on the brain)

      Delete
    10. Ben:

      "Having more BLANK than you" is a little too hard for the opponent to control, and doesn't feel like a choice they can make.

      "Putting +1/+1 counters on creatures you control" is really ambiguous wording. "Why would an opponent put +1/+1 counters on my creatures?" is what most people would ask.

      "Two or more creature tokens" could just be "two or more creatures". There were a couple cards in Scars that punished ramping along a similar line, I think. We could look to them for wording inspiration.

      Countering spells / exiling permanents are pretty narrow ,but fine on the right card. I think at higher rarities we can do narrow 'silver bullets', which have powerful Justice triggers - so if you can combine them with more frequently-broken Laws, you can exploit their powerful Justice trigger without needing to meet their stringent Law condition.

      Delete
    11. Can we eliminate the cubic scaling and have each permanent that creates a law enforce only that law?

      Law—Whenever an opponent casts a spell other than the first that player cast this turn, he or she loses 2 life and you gain 2 life.

      Does that defeat what's cool about justice?

      Delete
    12. I think that does very much lose the point of justice. Getting all your penalties to pay out whenever any of the laws are broken is the key appeal, to me.

      If we're really worried about common justice cards, then there are three possible simplifications at common that spring to mind:
      1) All common justice cards have the same law condition but different penalties. Tricky to choose a sensible law.
      2) All common justice cards have the same penalty but different laws. This seems more interesting.
      3) All common justice cards sacrifice themselves as part of the penalty.
      "Attacking with two or more creatures is against the law. // Whenever one of your opponents breaks the law, you may sacrifice ~. If you do, put two 1/1 colourless Thopter artifact creature tokens with flying OTB."
      4) Or it might not be a problem to just have multiple repeatable different triggers and effects at common.

      Delete
    13. I think you're missing another option, one that's previously been noted.

      5.) All common justice cards in a single color have the same law condition. Different colors have different laws. Individual cards have their own penalties.

      Sacrificing is nice, but flavorfully weird on creatures.

      I agree that it might not be a problem (4), but we should identify some countermeasures just in case playtesting proves us wrong.

      Delete
    14. Well, yes, but I consider that not 5) but 1a). Going part of the way towards 1) by conflating the law conditions from "all different" into "some the same" but not all the way to "all the same". It is much easier to choose two or three laws than one, yes.

      We could similarly go part of the way towards 2) by having there be some recurring penalty triggers.

      Delete
    15. Given that the initial impetus for justice in Kaladesh is the containment of natural mages, a single law [at common] makes perfect sense.

      "It's illegal to activate an ability of a creature"
      "It's illegal to tap a non-land permanent except to attack"

      Delete
    16. Jay you could change the law to not just effect creatures so that it also works with Aether Canisters.

      "It's against the law to activate an ability of a creature or artifact."

      "It's against the law to activate an ability of a nonland permanent."

      Delete
    17. Justice — Whenever an opponent activates a nonland ability, EFFECT.

      (With no need for the law/illegal text/paired triggers.)

      If we did Justice, I agree that it's definitely best kept to the one trigger, it sells the specific brand of suppression of the Consuls, compared to the "outlaw everything" nature of Azorius, or the "lets play Nomic in Magic" of Fiora's power struggle. I don't love calling out "activating abilities", but it does give us a clear fault line for how to show natural mages on Kaladesh.

      Come to think of it, this may just want to call out creature's abilities, depending on how the flavor sits. lf a creature taps to activate an artifact's ability (a la Operate//Springleaf Drum), are they law-abiding on this plane? I think the answer might be yes. The next step then is maybe to look at spellshapers or other interesting ways to highlight activated abilities of creatures (which is the next topic below, really).

      Delete
    18. FWIW, Reuben, I intentionally let Canisters escape notice since those are approved by the consulate. It's another way to increase their value.

      Delete
    19. If we do this form of Justice, which only hits opponents activated abilities, we definitely don't want to dedicate a mechanic to the natural mages, as we'd have two mechanics completely at odds to each other. It'd be very unfun to have to have the natural mage player always being like, "Man, I wish I could use my fun mechanic..."

      Delete
  11. Surge
    Natural magic could be any color and probably should be every color at some rarity, but if we use a 'colorless' mechanic heavily in a some colors (looking at you, blue), we could give that color a lot less surge.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Kaladesh's flavor leads me to believe natural mages would be best represented in red and green. I agree this should show up in all colors though, and less so in the colors most associated with colorless and artifacts. (Blue)

      Delete
    2. What if this only cared about activated abilities that had a Tap cost as this allows us to make surge more exciting due to not having to worry about annoying zero cost abilities.

      Delete
    3. Jay suggested last time "Whenever an artifact you control becomes tapped,". I like it as a mechanic, but not as a natural magic mechanic.

      "Whenever a creature you control becomes tapped", would be too easy. "Whenever a creature you control taps to activate an ability" seems even more complex than Surge.

      Delete
    4. Does this have to be a nature magic mechanic?

      Delete
    5. Well, Surge's spot is meant to represent the 'natural magic' of Kaladesh, so this thread is meant to discuss such a mechanic (and whether it's necessary or not). However, if we get other awesome ideas for mechanics while discussing this one, then those should definitely not be ignored. They just would be used to represent a different theme. For example, "Whenever an artifact you control becomes tapped" sounds like a good way to represent 'industry'.

      Delete
    6. Can I bring overtime back into the conversation? Designing cards around activating other abilities seems difficult - not insurmountable, but difficult - and with something like overtime, the default can be cards worrying about their own abilities. I think this makes the wording more common friendly and still allows higher rarities to key off activating abilties in general. The name should change obviously (unless we want it as an industrial thing), but I think it makes sense to talk about.

      Delete
    7. Mm, Overtime (with a name change, perhaps) could definitely be a Surge replacement.

      Even if we don't find a specific mechanic, at the very least I think an 'activated abilities matter' archetype in, say, {G}{R} could be used to represent the natural mages. Still, they're such an important part of the setting and its conflict, I'd prefer for them to have a singular connective mechanic. A pseudo-keyword - like Overtime and Surge - would be the best fit, I think.

      Delete
    8. Excitable Goblin {1}{R}
      2/1 Goblin
      Surge—Whenever you activate a nonland {T} ability, target creature an opponent controls can't block this turn.

      Careful Observer {2}{G}
      3/2 Monk
      Surge—Whenever you activate a nonland {T} ability, target creature gains trample until EOT.

      Probably want to avoid effects that mess with combat math since these are on-board tricks.

      Delete
    9. The other issue with surge is that it represents the importance of natural mages, but doesn't go on natural mages. Overtime does.

      Bog Harper {1}{B}{B}
      1/1 Witch
      Natural—{B}: ~ gets +1/+1 until end of turn. If this is the third time this ability resolved this turn, regenerate ~.

      Novice Pyromancer {2}{R}
      2/2 Witch
      Natural—{R}: Add {1} to your mana pool. If this is the third time this ability resolved this turn, ~ deals 1 damage to target c/p.

      Young Exciter {G}
      1/1 Witch
      Natural—{G}: Untap target tapped creature. If this is the third time this ability resolved this turn, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.

      Delete
    10. One issue I have with Natural is that it doesn't really play well with others of its ilk, since each one focuses so directly inwards - so it doesn't really encourage an archetype. Is there any way to fix that?

      Also, 'resolved' is a bit complex for common, no?

      Delete
    11. Orator {1}{W}
      2/2 Witch
      Natural—{W}: Gain 1 life. If this is the third time you activated a nonland ability this turn, creatures you control get +1/+1 until EOT.

      Delete
    12. How about this ability word along the lines of ferocious and formidable:

      Quintessence — Whenever you spend five or more mana to cast a spell or activate an ability, EFFECT.

      Synergizes with Access the Machine.

      ex.

      Essential Bear 2GG
      Creature - Bear (C)
      Quintessence — Whenever you spend five or more mana to cast a spell or activate an ability, ~ gains trample until end of turn.
      3/3

      Quinta Warrior 1RG
      Creature - Human Warrior (C)
      Quintessence — Whenever you spend five or more mana to cast a spell or activate an ability, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
      3/2

      Squinting Orgg 2RR
      Creature - Orgg (U)
      ~ can't block.
      Creatures blocking ~ have double strike.
      Quintessence — Whenever you spend five or more mana to cast a spell or activate an ability, target creature can't block this turn.
      6/6

      Quinta Librarian 3U
      Creature - Human Wizard (U)
      Quintessence — Whenever you spend five or more mana to cast a spell or activate an ability, you may draw a card.
      3UU: Draw a card, then discard a card.
      2/3

      Delete
    13. Ah, we've experimented with pretty similar mechanics before - Iterate being the one that comes to mind immediately. I like this, especially the name, which is quite clever. (Though less so in Magic, which already has five 'essences'. :P) Also I love 'Squinting Orgg' - you're a clever one, Amuseum!

      Quintessence seems like it's close to a flavor fit for 'natural magic', but I'm still not quite convinced. Is the idea that natural mages can only access their power during a 'surge' of mana? Maybe the explanation could be that aether canisters are sapping the world of mana for anyone to access, so natural mages are growing weaker and rarer, and can only use their abilities when there's a lot of 'spent' mana in the environment... or something.

      Iterate's original spin was built to represent progress, since it kept raising the goalpost. Here, as it looks only for five mana being spent, it reminds me of Build, which cared about casting spells of 5+CMC. What you have here is the intuitive intersection between the two, which is nice. The problem that Iterate faced, though, was some confusion over how spending mana in chunks works. If I cast a 3CMC then a 2CMC spell, did I spent "five or more mana to cast a spell"? What if I activate a Firebreathing effect five times?

      Also, given that it only looks for a single number or more, it's a 'binary progress' mechanic rather than a 'granular progress' mechanic. That's perfectly fine - we're going to want examples of both, I think - but I'm just noting that's a difference from Iterate.

      Jay, 'Natural' is looking perfect, and it's exactly what I was thinking of. At common it could appear on tap abilities, which makes for a fun sense of building the right board to maximize your Natural profit. It also reinforces the flavor that Natural mages work best when they can work together. I like it a lot!

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    14. The Force—Whenever you cast a spell without spending any generic mana / with only colored mana, effect.

      Pure—If you spent only colored mana to cast ~, effect.

      Primal—Spend only mana produced by basic lands to cast ~.

      These could all be the 'natural mage' mechanic, and focus on not benefiting from aether canisters.

      Delete
    15. Well, the version of aether canisters that produce colorless mana, at least.

      A lot of people have come up with Primal, and I think it's... okay. It's usually meaningless in draft, but a format with enough artifact ramp could make it matter more. The problem is, Primal is 'interesting' in constructed, but to make it interesting for constructed would mean making it dangerous in limited, I think.

      Pure is a more specific primal, and one that doesn't even come up that much in constructed, as far as I know.

      Delete
    16. Apoquallyp's "Abundance"

      Could this be a good mechanic for natural mages? Thanks to Reuben for the suggestion.

      Delete
    17. Good critique.

      So abundance is kicker where you don't have to spend the mana? Do we get enough gameplay to warrant that strangeness?

      I think I prefer "If you cast a [color] spell with CMC 4+, effect."

      Delete
    18. Yeah I was wondering the same. I talked with Reuben about it and he had some good points, but I wasn't quite convinced.

      Here are my thoughts:

      So the mana hangs around in your pool. This means you have to 'commit' to that mana. You can still spend it on something else, but it HAS to be in your pool. So it can 'just' be kicker, or it can be a 'free' kicker if you set your turn up right.

      Additionally, if you set up your turn VERY well, you can trigger multiple Abundance creatures if you have a good mana base. For example, a monowhite deck could probably do this consistently, if all the Abundance triggers look for white.

      The mechanic works well with the charge canisters that untap, and with a colorless (especially monohybrid) theme, since it becomes easier to 'juggle' your mana to set up combos, given the flexibility of your cards' casting costs.

      The big problem I noted is that none of this strangeness is intuitive or even implied. This is all for players to figure out by playing with the mechanic, all on their own. I was immediately reminded of Awaken, from Battle For Zendikar. Awaken has a lot of different uses - stacking the counters on one land, doing it a turn early but awakening a tapped land, etc. - but it has one EXPLICIT and OBVIOUS use - which is to awaken a land then attack with it immediately.

      The fact Awaken has lots of uses is great - and I think that same greatness is hidden in Abundance. The problem is that Abundance makes no single use explicit and obvious, like Awaken does. So it seems like it'd be more 'strange' to players.

      I think playtesting could reveal whether it's doable or not, though.

      Delete
    19. Just to have more options:

      I think it is ok to just give natural mages Prowess. That's "normal magic."

      Or a version of it that doesn't count Artifact spells.

      Natural Pyromancer 2R
      Creature- Shaman
      Spellfall - Whenever you cast a non-creature, no-artifact spell, ~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
      2/2

      If Vision is a thing, the natural mages could be the ones pulling the Instants, Sorceries, and Enchantments out of the Vision pile while the artificers pull out artifacts.

      If this was a real set, I think it would be fine to just introduce these guys but focus on them fully in the second set when the revolt occurs. But since we are only going to make the first set, fully highlighting the natural mages is also fine.

      I also think it's ok to simply show the fugitive status of these Mages.

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    20. The problem with Prowess is that its colors are {U}{R}, and I think our natural mage archetype should really be {G}{R}.

      I agree that, if we're doing a "revolution" style block structure, the second set would probably have the natural mage mechanic and focus on them more after their 'foreshadowing' in the first set as an oppressed fugitive underclass. But we don't have plans for that yet, so yeah, we should at least give them an archetype in this set.

      Delete
  12. Charge
    Charge can go anywhere, but blue and green are the best fits mechanically for the same reason as Scions. Note that despite being thematically opposite natural magic, canisters play well with surge.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Blue and green also get the most untapping, which further emphasizes it in these colors.

      This mechanic definitely isn't white. Which is interesting flavor, as the consuls (white) rely on the canisters to power their regime.

      Delete
    2. Gobbo Harvester {1}{R}
      1/2 Goblin Artificer
      When ~ ETB, charge.

      Bengal Harvester {3}{G}
      2/3 Cat Artificer
      Whenever ~ attacks, charge.

      Gelph Harvester {2}{U}
      1/3 Merfolk Artificer
      Whenever you cast an artifact spell, charge.

      Seethi Hoarder {1}{B}
      2/1 Rat Rogue
      When ~ dies, charge.

      Delete
    3. A cycle that lets you 'double-tap' the thing once:

      Manalens Matrix {2}
      Artifact
      When Manalens Matrix enters the battlefield, charge.
      {1}, {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

      Consul Watcher {1}{U}
      Creature - Human Rogue
      When ~ enters the battlefield, charge.
      {T}: Draw a card, then discard a card.
      1/1

      Estate Agent {2}{G}
      Creature - Elf Scout
      When ~ enters the battlefield, charge.
      {T}: You may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield.
      2/1

      Aethersniper {2}{R}
      Creature - Human Artificer
      When ~ enters the battlefield, charge.
      {T}: Aethersniper deals 1 damage to each opponent.
      1/2

      Consul Officer {3}{W}
      Creature - Human Soldier
      When ~ enters the battlefield, charge.
      {T}: Tap target creature with power 3 or less.
      2/2

      Underground Dealer {4}{B}
      Creature - Human Rogue
      When ~ enters the battlefield, charge.
      {T}: Target opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
      3/3

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    4. I agree that charge *could* go anywhere, but doesn't have to. Assuming we're following the modern design principle of each colour-pair having some particular focus, it'd make sense to have a couple of colours get the lion's share of the charge cards. Blue is clearly a strong candidate. The other colours each have minor problems: red and black don't do vigilance, white really doesn't do ramp, green doesn't normally play well with artifacts. But I think any one or two of those could be excused for this set.

      I like the commons proposed above by both Jay and Inanimate, subject to the conditions of which colours we include the mechanic in (probably not all five?).

      I also note (as has been observed before) that Inspired plays very nicely with charge, and has a great name for the set. Imagine name-change reprints of Pheres-Band Tromper ("Veteran Traditionalist") or Sphinx's Disciple ("Lofty Visionary"). Could Deepwater Hypnotist ("Blurrer of Thoughts") even be common in a set with charge, or would that add up to too much on-board complexity?

      Delete
    5. Inspired really didn't go over well the first time. How could we return to it and address the issues it had?

      Delete
    6. Ok so one of my small annoyances with the Aether canister designs is that like gold counters they are so difficult to interact with.
      The way Spawn/Scions handle this is by making them creatures right?

      The other issue I've been having is how to make lots of thopters and other creatures that can interact with our other mechanics like Revolution, Justice etc...

      So my idea is to have the tokens be Thopters!

      Put a 0/1 colorless Thopter artifact creature token onto the battlefield with flying and “Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent. Activate only as a sorcery.”

      Also is there any other way we can make this activate only at sorcery speed other than an activated ability now that its a creature?

      Eg: "Whenever this attacks, you may sacrifice it. If you do, untap target permanent."

      This may be able to cut the word count be we have to take into consideration what other effects it has, such as the tokens not having haste.

      Delete
    7. I think Canisters being noncreatures is a feature, not a bug. Eldrazi Spawn are cool! Renamed Eldrazi Spawn, This Time With Flying, is... not very cool at all. There's also the fact that canisters have a precedent on the plane we're working on - not that I mind evolving the flavor of the plane as we evolve mechanics - but it's worth seeing if we can sell the AEther Canister idea as a mechanical entity on this set, and I think we can.

      I would also say that Aether canisters don't necessarily need to be interacted with directly. Even if they had hexproof and indestructible - and you can't interact with whatever effect brings them into existence - they do nothing on their own. You can, presumably, interact with anything interesting that they could untap.

      "Thopter creature with flying" are also four words and roughly a line of text, which is a cost.

      Delete
    8. I agree that from a flavor perspective the AEther canisters are a great fit. But if the gameplay isn't great then its not worth it.

      Scions have shown us that renaming eldrazi spawn is acceptable because the base gameplay is good.

      For interaction I'm not so much referring to your opponent's (though thats good too) I'm more talking about how they just have so few options for yourself, you can't block, tap for Revolution, potentially pump and then attack.

      I agree that the wordiness is an issue, thus why I was looking for alternate sac triggers.

      Delete
    9. Some things to go with charge: clockwork creatures like Clockwork Beast. It could be renamed Chargeable Beast or something if you don't like the clockwork flavor.

      Delete
    10. Combat doesn't have to be the only form of interaction. See werewolves.

      This doesn't seem fun, but an example:

      Red Aether Canister
      artifact token
      Red spells cost {R} less to cast.
      [Whenever a player casts a red spell, sacrifice ~.]

      Delete
    11. The key to charge is just making sure they have a variety of uses for players. Eldrazi Spawn are fun and interesting because they can be used in many ways, and that's mostly because they are creatures.

      Personally, I think untapping stuff means that Canisters will be fine, interaction-wise. There's lots of things you can do with untapping, and it'll make players feel clever as they discover combos and feel cool as they pull off powerful turns. Stuff like my ETB cycle help here, as they (because they are bundled with a Canister AND a tap ability) teach players that tap abilities go well with Canisters. In addition, Canisters encourage people to attack (since they can untap for vigilance). Altogether, it's obviously not as much interaction as Spawn, but it's not a TERRIBLE amount. Still not as good as it could be, though.

      One issue is that Spawn are the RECEIVERS of interaction. You can do things TO Spawn. Canisters, on the other hand, are the SOURCE of interaction. You do things WITH Canisters. That feels quite different.

      Delete
  13. Operate
    Okay, Operate wasn't on the list, but "artifacts that creatures can operate" is a space we've worked on, and I've spent a lot of time thinking about commons for the mechanic, especially that aren't vehicles/things-that-become creatures. Alara gave us colored artifacts and both Mirrodins gave us spellbombs, both of which I'd like to shy away from. The thing is, common artifacts kind of want to be one-shots — spellbombs, chromatic eggs, maps, and twigs, are all great examples of that. Trying to balance these two forces, this is what I came up with:

    Jeweler's Workshop {2}
    Artifact (c)
    ~ enters the battlefield with a work counter.
    {T}, Remove a work counter from ~: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
    Tap a green creature you control: Put a work counter on ~.

    That's three abilities, seven lines of text, but I think the clearest flavor.

    Jeweler's Workshop' {2}
    Artifact (c)
    ~ enters the battlefield with a work counter.
    {t}, Remove a work counter from ~ or tap a green creature you control: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

    Two abilities, and the upside of tapping the creature at the time of the work being done; but the T cost might seem muddled, and it's funny to only care about the work counter for a second (unless we have counter-adding abilities elsewhere, like some Tinker variants.)

    Jeweler's Workshop'' {2}
    Artifact (c)
    ~ doesn't untap during your untap step unless you tap a green creature you control.
    {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

    This is the shortest text, with no counters and 5 lines, but it reads drawback-first and the gameplay seems too distant from the flavor. Really interested in hearing what you guys might think across these three.

    The other colors, all at {2} & common:
    Archivist's Workshop: Draw, then discard. ({u})
    Barber-Surgeon's Workshop: Target player loses 1 life, you gain 1 life. ({b})
    Wingmender's Workshop: Put a 1/1 Thopter token with flying onto the battlefield. ({w})
    Glazier's Workshop: Target creature can't block this turn. ({r}).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The second version seems the best to me. I think this would make a great cycle, at the very least - and it holds enough promise to perhaps be something more.

      If we put a cycle of these at uncommon, for example, we could use the odd wording of Version 2, and push their effects to be something way interesting. As it is, I think these are fine at common, as long as they start one-use (as you noted).

      But yeah, very cool stuff. Is there a mechanic hiding here? I think there might be.

      Delete
    2. Jeweler's Workshop {2}
      Artifact (c)
      {T}, Tap a green creature you control or sacrifice ~: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

      This is functionally different and would feel miserable to have to sack to cast your first green creature, but it's also super concise. Sharing purely for reference.

      Delete
    3. If I could choose to tap my green creature to untap it after my draw step, I would like #3 the best.

      Jeweler's Workshop'' 2
      Artifact (c)
      ~ doesn't untap during your untap step.
      At the beginning of your first main phase, you may tap an untapped green creature you control. If you do, untap ~.
      Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

      But that's wordy again.

      Jeweler's Workshop'' 2
      Artifact (c)
      ~ doesn't untap during your untap step.
      Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
      Tap an untapped green creature you control. If you do, untap ~.

      That's cool, but allows many uses. Maybe not a bad thing.

      Delete
    4. Both of these are interesting, but getting away from the main idea. I think the second one's idea might be better though.

      Delete
  14. Firstly, is there a list of things the set is NOT doing - colored artifacts, two-brid, etc And is there a list of things the set is DEFINITELY doing? Just asking so I don't waste anyone's time proposing stuff that simply isn't up for consideration.

    How about a couple of simple mechanics?

    Eureka has an inherent problem - it's parasitic in a way that would force overall set design to include an inordinate amount of artifacts to be relevant, which if I understand correctly isn't desired. Invent deals with that problem and brings its own game element to the table.

    Eureka - Whenever an artifact enters the battlefield under your control, EFFECT.

    Invent - When Card Name enters the battlefield, you may pay X. If you do, put a #/# colorless Type artifact creature token onto the battlefield.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mark Rosewater says artifactfall has been tested and failed because of issues with 0-cost artifacts. It might be doable in a well-crafted environment, but...

      We are definitely not doing colored artifacts like Esper. All artifact creatures are created, not naturally occurring - so not like Mirrodin. Two-brid is a possibility but to be avoided, given the mechanical identity of New Phyrexia's artifacts.

      I personally have proposed exploring noncreature artifacts once or twice.

      Delete
  15. I was under the impression that they didn't design around eternal formats.

    MaRo quite often eats his words anyways, so I'm wouldn't be too concerned with such a claim.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is true, and I wondered the same thing. I think the issue is that artifacts are simply often cheaper than enchantments; that they do seem to keep Modern in mind; and that even in Standard it's hard to avoid 0-cost artifacts (we have like 3 potential ones in Standard right now)

      Delete
    2. I'd've thought it'd still be possible to balance artifactfall, just at a slightly lower power level. There are a bunch of things that make multiple artifacts in one go, and/or make an artifact token every turn, so we'd need to be cautious, but I think it ought to be possible to balance it and the rest of the set to be fun without breaking Modern.

      Delete
    3. Whenever a land with CMC 2+ ETB…

      Delete
  16. I just read the new post. Going to spew my random thoughts here:

    1. I don't think "Assemble a Contraption" is a must-have for a steampunk set... *as long as we have something similar*. And guess what: We do!

    Canister Boss 3R
    Creature- Goblin Artificer (Rare)
    3/3
    Other Artificer creatures you control get +1/+0.
    Whenever you would charge, put two Canister tokens onto the battlefield instead of one.

    This is at least as close to Steamflogger Boss as colorless cards and enchantment creatures were to their Future Sight counterparts. It could get even closer if we make charge exclusively an ETB trigger.

    2. I'm a big fan of both Charge and Advance, but I notice that they have a very... disappointing interaction with each other. Maybe Advance could trigger on X taps in a turn rather than X untaps?

    3. I don't like Combine, in any of its DFC forms, for Kaladesh-Tesla. It's adding a lot of complexity to represent something that really doesn't belong on Kaladesh-- mechs are almost exclusively for grittier, more sci-fi steampunk settings. Don't get me wrong: I still think it's an awesome mechanic. But it belongs in a set where it can be a marquee, eye-popping mechanic with a really clear flavor justification (maybe even one that doesn't involve artifacts).

    4. Vehicles / Pilots, in whatever form, seem much more Kaladesh-y (Kaladeshian??) and I'd love it if we could make them work. It could be something as simple as:

    Tesla Thopter 2
    Artifact Creature- Thopter (Common)
    1/1
    Flying
    Vehicle-- T: Target creature gets +1/+1 and gains flying until end of turn. Activate this ability only as a sorcery.

    Which would play very nicely with Charge, by the way.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 5. I think we'll find that Advance (whether it triggers on tapping or untapping) is quite interactive. It encourages players to activate abilities and make attacks that they wouldn't do otherwise. And my proposal for Vehicle would interact well with it in this regard.

      Delete
    2. 6. Am I correct in thinking that Justice abilities trigger off of other Justice abilities' laws? That's kind of nifty, but also scary since it grows exponentially (like Allies) if you play creatures with all different laws. It also enables funny designs like this:

      Outlaw Serpent 4U
      Creature- Serpent (Common)
      4/4
      Attacking with CARDNAME breaks the law.

      Delete
    3. Hmm. Mechs really don't fit Kaladesh, do they.

      Delete
    4. I thought mechs might be justifiable as consul weaponry designed for overzealous peacekeeping and riot control, but you make a compelling argument, Ipaulsen. Maybe it's more of a Mirrodin thing?

      I too noticed the disappointing interaction between Advance and Charge. I think the key is to notice that tapping abilities would be an 'intersection point' between Charge and Advance, since they simultaneously play well with both. But yeah, that's not quite enough. I do think Advance is interactive - I just think it isn't as interactive or exciting as Revolution is, which is why I want to try to learn some lessons from Revolution.

      I agree that Vehicles and Pilots are a perfect fit for Tesla. I still feel like our Vehicles should not be creatures though... that flavor just feels really weird to me.

      Justice abilities do trigger off of each others' laws. That's why I've been pushing for less individual unique laws at common. Outlaw Serpent is such a cute and flavorful design. :)

      Delete
    5. At end of turn, if you untapped 10 or more permanents this turn, you become Advanced.

      Too squidgy?

      Delete
    6. Feels disappointing when I untap all my permanents at start of turn and get nothing out of it.

      Delete
    7. I think it's important to capture the feel of inventing something in Kaladesh, and the only way to allow players to invent something inside of the game asides from allowing them to make their own card is to combine two cards. It doesn't have to be Mechas though.

      Wizards have been keen to do contraptions (if they figure out a way to do it) because of the fan response to it so far. Mark Rosewater said that every time they visit a new setting, they at least ask "is this a set where we could do Contraptions?" I have a feeling that part of the reason Kaladesh was created was to house Contraptions. I would be surprised if they don't go into the design with the intention of visiting Contraptions (although they might not do it if they don't find a good execution, of course). We don't need to read into WotC's and make this an exercise in prediction, but I do think Contraptions would be a natural fit for this plane.

      I think Pilots as a specific category of cards are not a good idea for reasons I posted above, but something along the lines of that implementation of Vehicles look nice. Maybe there could be variants that carry more than 1 creature?

      Delete
  17. I need to make a couple of comments on each of these threads, but it's going to take time... thanks for keeping the discussion open, Inanimate. I hope to post my comments within 12 or so hours...

    ReplyDelete