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designer.Mark Rosewater mentioned that they tried out "double cycling" for a while in Amonkhet design. Make a card for the set "where you discard [it] and another card to draw two cards."
Also in Oketra's Name 4W
ReplyDeleteSorcery (U)
Creatures you control get +2/+2 until end of turn.
Zombie creatures you control gain lifelink until end of turn.
DoubleCycling 2 (2, Discard this and another card from your hand: Draw two cards)
A multi-purpose card for the embalm deck, getting mummies in your graveyard early or acting as a late-game finisher.
I like this better than the original, even though it has the luxury of being uncommon. In Oketra's Name gives us a conditionally useful boost with an even smaller tribal bonus, and nothing to do when it's not useful. This gives us a substantial boost, with a potentially significant tribal reward, and something awesome to do when we're creatureless.
DeleteOur first double cycling cost comes in at 2. I suspect this is low, but let's see what others thought.
Reclamation Storm 2UR
ReplyDeleteInstant - uncommon
You may return up to two instants or sorceries from your graveyard to your hand.
Double Cycling: 2 (you may pay the cycling cost twice, and discard an additional card to draw an additional card )
When you cycle reclamation storm, target spell in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn.
Blue and red don't usually recur cards from the graveyard, but they can certainly grab instants and sorceries in sets that want them to. I don't think it's a huge stretch to say that about fits in Amonkhet thematically and with all this cycling going on.
DeleteThis card has some nice mirroring between its two uses, and its cool how one could set up another (though we may want to exile this after it resolves).
Our second double cycling cost comes in at 2. Coincidence?
Master Embalmer 2WW
ReplyDeleteLeyendary Creature - Human Cleric (M)
When enters to the battlefield or you embalm Master Embalmer, return target creature from your graveyard to the battlefield.
DoubleCycling 1WW
Embalm 2WW
2/3
Legendary creatures always get proper names, but otherwise this playtest name indicates flavor clearly.
DeleteThis gives you a full-on resurrection both when you first cast it, and when you embalm it. We can skip right past the concern that even without embalm of cycling, this is strictly better than Resurrection… because white only does that for small creatures anymore. See Devoted Crop-Mate.
I have trouble imagining the scenario where I'd want to cycle a card this awesome away. I guess if I have no creatures in the gy, and no way to get any there soon, and I'm desperate for new cards, and I have nothing better to do with {1}{W}{W}.
The cycling cost is both more expensive and more restrictive. This is closer to my first intuition about what double cycling would have to cost, though doing both might just make it a Constructed-only option.
Improvised Ammunition
ReplyDelete2R
Sorcery - Common
Remove all brick counters from targer permanent. CARDNAME deals damage to target opponent equal to the number of brick counters removed in this way.
Doublecycling 2
Being able to cycle this away mitigates how narrow its effect is, but I don't think I'd even cast this when my opponent has fully-built one of the two rares or uncommons that actually use bricks, because it still doesn't destroy them and it only does 3 damage. For 2R?
DeleteI guess we treat double-cycling as this card's true purpose and everything else as trinket text for flavor.
Another {2} cost to turn your two worst cards in hand into two new cards from your deck. We're officially trending now.
Till the Shefet 1G
ReplyDeleteSorcery (C)
Search your library for a basic land card or Desert card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
Doublecycling 2
This looks like a real card. I can absolutely see that first line on a common sorcery at this price, and cycling gives it some added value in the late game.
DeleteEven if we're all wrong about doublecycling being worth two mana, it's not like that's a fair judgment of designers. Costing and balance is Dev's domain.
Does doublecycling really make sense at generic cost 2? It feels weird to do that after having Tormenting Voice(& its cousins) be such consistent red staples at 2CMC for so long. This was the best I could think of:
ReplyDeleteSand's Judgment B
Sorcery (u)
Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature.
Doublecycling 5B.
When you cycle CARDNAME, put X -1/-1 counters on target creature, where X is the other discarded card’s converted mana cost.
But then I think I found something cute enough:
God-Pharaoh's Praises 1B
Sorcery (u)
Doublecycling 3B
Whenever you gain life, you may pay 2 life. If you do, return God-Pharoah’s Praises from the graveyard to its owner’s hand.
I think this is going to be almost easier spelled out? Especially with the U/B enablers working on cycle-or-discard:
DeleteSun's Judgment 1RR
Sorcery (r)
Choose one —
• Sun’s Judgment deals 3 damage to each player.
• Sun’s Judgment deals 1 damage to each creature.
Cycling R
When you cast or cycle Sun’s Judgment, you may pay {2} and discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
Pasteur makes an excellent argument that {2} is too easy/cheap a cost for double-cycling when that's all Tormenting Voice does for {1}{R}.
DeleteSun's Judgment is a weak rare for duels, as a Blazing Volley or Lava Spike for for triple the price, but that could be fixed by dropping a {R} from the cost, lowering the rarity, and/or adding "or both" to the choice.
What's more interesting is how Brian executed double cycling. You can single-cycle for {R}, or you can upgrade that and cycle any other card as well for {2}{R} total. Assuming we want that much choice/granularity, that does look like a very Magic-y way to do it.
Tormenting Whip R
ReplyDeleteSorcery (U)
Deal 3 damage to target tapped creature
Double Cycling 4R
When you double cycle Torrmenting Whip, deal X damage to target creature, where X is the total converted mana cost of cards discarded this way.
Torrmenting Paralysis 3UU
Sorcery (U)
Target player skips their next untap step
Double Cycling 1U
If you discarded a permanent card in addition Torrmenting Paralysis, tap target permanent that shares a type with that card.
Torrmenting Remorse G
Sorcery
Return target permanent card from your graveyard to your hard.
Double Cycling 2GG
When you double cycle Torrmenting Remorse, return target permanent card from your graveyard to your hand.
Tormenting Prophesy B
DeleteSorcery (U)
Scry 3
Double Cycling 3B
If you discarded a creature card when you double cycled Tormenting Prophesy, scry 3. (Do this before you draw)
Tormenting Practice W
Enchantment- Aura (U)
Enchanted creature gain vigilance.
Double Cycling 4WW
If you discarded an aura card when you double cycled Tormenting Exercise, return that aura to the battlefield attached to target creature.
Your version of Tormenting Whip is definitely the right way compared to my Sand's Judgment - making it a small cost itself + adding it together still dis-incentivizes lands while making X something other than 0.
DeleteI'd like Tormenting Remorse if the uncycled version had "random" and the cycled didn't.
I like that fix for Torrmenting Remorse. Originally the cycling effect could only return cards of the same type that were discarded.
DeleteTormenting Practice is Vigilance plus the option to discard it and another card for {4}{W}{W} to get two new cards and return it to your hand.
DeleteThat first mode is nearly unplayable (until you account for exert), but the second mode is pure card advantage. If you have any other aura in hand, you actually get to play it and Vigilance and draw two cards, all for six mana. 6 is a lot, but letting white draw two cards and avoid mana costs feels like a double bend of the color pie to me.
I really like how Wobbles makes the other card you cycle matter, but Wizards would definitely save that tech for the second set that uses double-cycling, as double-cycling is new and unique and interesting enough on its own (especially in the same Standard as madness).
Thinker's Dilemma {3}{U}
ReplyDeleteSorcery
Draw two cards.
Doublecycling {U}
Solid choice, though I do think the cycling almost certainly needs to be 1U.
DeleteI love how clean this card is, and how it helps explain the mechanic's ramifications to the player. "You can spend this card and four mana to get two new cards, or you can spend this card and another plus one mana instead."
DeleteI think a double-cycling cost of {1}{U} (or even {U}{U} or {3}) would make the choice more interesting.
A bunch of cool cards here, Artisans. Nice work.
ReplyDeleteBased on Pasteur's and Wobble's work, I think another likely execution for double cycling is:
Cycling {3}
When you cycle ~, draw an additional card.
Er, I mean:
DeleteCycling—{3}, Discard a card.
When you cycle ~, draw an additional card.
Giving every color access to instant speed, colorless divinations would be a bold design decision.
DeleteAnother way: Investigative Doublecycling N (N, discard this card from your hand: Investigate twice.)
ReplyDeleteDjapta, Who Judges 7W
ReplyDeleteLegendary Creature - Angel
Cycling 2W
Flying
When you cycle CARDNAME, you may discard another card from your hand. If you do, return CARDNAME from your graveyard to your hand at eot.
7/7
I know it's not particularly white, but in the vein of Eternal Dragon? I just keep coming back to the idea of judging cards as "worthy"/"unworthy" a la souls & feathers.