This is something I've been wanting to do for a while, but technology like batching didn't exist, and it seemed odd to me to create a game term strictly for referencing other game terms. The rules for counters would need to be slightly tweaked to have them be considered "attached", or the reminder text could be rewritten if that's too difficult a change.
If it's not evergreen/deciduous, then we run into issues of typically caring about only up to one of these augments in any given set, so why even reference the other two? But if it's grokable enough as a concept (and I think it is) and we do care about at least artifacts in some way, enchantments in some way, or +1/+1 counters in some way, which we do with some frequency, then it's a way to make cards that are broader and occasionally less wordy.
The other major problem is that augmented crosses color pie borders. Caring about auras and +1/+1 counters are Very Simic, but being equipped is a Jeskai overlap.
Note that caring about these things doesn't actually undermine any color pie weaknesses, only blurs color pie identity. Bends, not breaks.
What game concepts do you all think batching technology could potentially be used for in the future?
I'd love to see it as a way to back end spel types into the game:
ReplyDeleteArson Enchantress 1RR
Creature - Human
Whenever you cast a burn spell, draw a card. (Burn spells are red instants or sorceries that deal damage.)
2/1
Augment is interesting. It's a bit weird to me that a card like augment bear wouldn't count as augmented itself once the ability was turned on?
That seems like an un-approach to the idea. Which is awesome.
DeleteIt wasn't immediately clear to me how Matt thought your definition wouldn't match player expectation, but now I'm thinking it's the red part, and that any spell that deals damage might be more intuitive.
DeleteSpeaking of, maybe we can use batching to finally create one word that means "sorcery or instant spell." Incantation? Invocation?
They need to bite the bullet and just call them all sorceries, and errata instants to have flash. It's the most frustrating distinction in the entire game from a templating perspective.
DeleteIn light of the giant batch of errata that just got dropped, I love this change, IF we can figure out a way to template "sorcery speed" abilities without mentioning the stack.
DeleteActivate this only when you could cast a spell without flash
DeleteI genuinely think they could just introduce a new term that means "sorcery speed" and just start using it without any explanation - but there's been plenty of talk here and elsewhere about using "slow" or a symbol (⌛?) to indicate sorcery speed on an activation. Wizards could do that even before introducing a switch to "they're all sorceries", and it would be welcome, like, yesterday, in my opinion. I think we can even avoid/omit any cards spelling out the new change, just like we didn't have cards with "Entering the battlefield is what used to be 'coming into play'." But that might be too ambitious.
DeleteReprint some classic examples with the new symbology and established players will get it quick.
DeleteHow about "activate this ability only during your main phase?"
DeleteI wish they would have batched "can be the target of a Lightning Bolt" instead of using that terrible "any" wording.
ReplyDeleteLightning Bolt deals 3 damage to target flammable. (Players, planeswalkers, and creatures are flammable.)
Then you could riff on that like so:
"Each flammable"
"You and flammable permanents you control"
"Protection from nonflammable"???
I didn't realize there were people in the anti-"any target" camp. I love that change.
DeleteWell ... I was just kind of thinking about it for a few minutes. Can you cast Lighting Bolt at an opponent's Cancel spell?
DeleteIt used be that it wasn't a valid target. But spells on the stack are "any target," aren't they?
Cancel doesn't have toughness or life totals so it's easy to say that the Lightning Bolt doesn't do anything. But that's not the same as fizzling, is it? Does it trigger prowess? Can it be used to trigger anything that cares about instants being cast?
No, trying to Lightning Bolt a Cancel isn't a legal play. The rules mistake I anticipate being most annoyed about involves Vehicles, because they do have a p/t value when un-animated but don't fall into the category of "any target."
DeleteThe fact that 700ish cards are getting functional errata also bothers me.
Oh no! You might *think* that "any" target means any target. But no..... "Any" target means "creature, player, or planeswalker". I think you SHOULD be able to target vehicles and gods. But that's not what they did :(
Delete"Any target" is their batched word.
Delete"Flammable" is great flavor, though it'll be more confusing with damage spells not themed as fire effects.
That's all fair argument. A few years back I was advocating that they schedule an end date on the PW redirect rule, start printing standard and modern functional reprints with all available targets listed (ie, shock with "target creature, player, or planeswalker), and after enough had been seeded, cancel the redirect rule and not errata anything.
DeleteAny target doesn't bother me as much. It's pretty grokable that something without a quantifiable number (loyalty, life, toughness) won't be hit by a lightning bolt.
I'd love to see a batch term for "sorceries, instants, and enchantments." If you had a set where such a term matters it could interact with different color pie combos in different ways.
ReplyDeleteVoid-Touched Memories RB3
DeleteEnchantment
All your runic cards have madness. Their madness costs are equal to their casting costs (Runic cards are sorceries, instants, and enchantments.)
Barbecube suggested the same to me. He used the word "fantastical", which I thought was a nice fit, as these card types typically represent the immaterial.
DeleteThe problem is that this is essentially the same thing as looking for noncreature cards, just with the bonus inclusion of enchantment creatures, which is... pretty minimal.
I'm trying to get rid of the awkward "non-creature, non-artifact" template. Also, I've always thought it was weird that Prowess counts things like artifacts and planeswalkers when they're cast.
DeleteI think it makes sense for Prowess to care about artifacts. It caring about PWs is definitely weird though.
DeleteOH. What happens if we classify all sorceries and instants as 'arcane'? That's a functional change, but suddenly all the existing splice cards stop being parasitic.
DeleteWeird and bad things happen with overload. For instance, Glacial Ray now tries to deal damage to "any each".
DeleteWhoa.
DeleteAre you sure we don't apply overload to the card first, then staple Ray's text on?
holy rusted metal. All Instants Sorceries as arcane is awesome and insane. And never going to happen. But suddenly a lot of oddball Kamigawa cards would suddenly become way more functional.
DeleteMadOlaf and Bradley Rose discussed this exact form of batching on this week's Beacon of Creation.
DeleteI think noncreature/nonland/nonblack are examples of batching, sort of. Prowess is like batching for all spell types except creatures.
ReplyDeleteMore on topic though, I think one limitation with batching is frequency. Whatever word you make up needs to appear often enough to be worth adding to the game.
For instance,
Master of Mounts {2}{W}W}
Creature - Human Knight (R)
Horsemanship
Equestrian creatures you control get +1/+1 and have flanking. (Horses, Unicorns, and Pegasi are equestrian.)
is not worth adding new vocabulary for, since the likelihood of caring about these three things across a whole set is really low. It's more reasonable to execute one-of lords like this.
Another limitation is that three is really the sweet spot. Want to batch underwater stuff as aquatic? Well, Merfolk, Fish, Octopuses, Kraken, etc. gets too long for a card quickly.
Sometimes it is easier to just use a type rather than batch subtypes. For instance,
Slobad, Scrap Genius {1}{R}
Legendary Creature (R)
{T}, Sacrifice a tool: Return target tool card from your graveyard to the battlefield. (Equipment, Vehicles, and Fortifications are tools.)
1/1
All of these are artifact subtypes, so this space is probably too narrow to be worth batching.
I think supertype/type/subtype is ideal.
Where I think batching could work well:
A two-or-three faction set (e.g. alliance vs. horde batching)
An enchantment set, to increase as-fan
I like augmented, but unlike historic it only functions on the battlefield. Just something I noticed. If the counter wording could be fixed, I think the idea is very clean.
I agree that 3 is the sweet spot. Sea monsters could use some batching, or at least merging of two of the types (Whelming Wave and Quest for Ula's Temple want more friends to play with)
DeleteI will say that there are things to "batch" that aren't lists, but you'll have to wait a month or two to hear what I mean.
DeleteSimic Messenger UG
ReplyDeleteCreature- Wombat Frog
2/2
Whenever you cast another Simic spell, draw a card. (A card is Simic if it's blue and green or if it has graft or evolve.)
Please ignore the fact that this doesn't work for e.g. Boros. If I thought watermarks-matter could be done in black border, I'd go for that instead...
I like this! I could see Simic get referred to as (Spells and permanents that are only blue, green or blue and green are Simic). This would allow a mono green spell to belong to any green guild, but it would still be REALLY neat.
DeleteWe can even update the definition when Fall of Ravnica comes out and Simic gets a third mechanic.
DeleteOh, augment feedback! Keep in mind augment is now already the name of a mechanic thanks to Unstable and I'm very certain they want to figure out how to bring that over to black border (if they aren't they are nuts).
ReplyDeleteBut that's just the name, not the mechanic. The one design challenge is that typically, whatever is augmenting a permanent is already boosting it, so rewards for augmenting can be tricky to balance. Your examples all look balanced to me.
I like augment as well. It groups together three things that, like historic, would be a little tough to sell separately, but with the word... it's nice.
DeleteSince we're using reminder text, I think you can get away with "A creature is enhanced if there's an aura, equipment, or counter on it" or even "A creature is enhanced if it has an aura, equipment, or counter."
DeleteI'm so angry at me for forgetting that augment had so recently been used as a mechanic, you have no idea.
DeleteBatching opens quite a big wide world that I'm not too sure where to go with it. Just in this post I see things that never would have occurred to me. I'm not exactly sure what can be matched, but imagining the flavor it donceyw is like w dream in a way. Imagine cards that kill "aquatic creatures (fish, Merfolk, octopus, etc.)". People had a hard time grasping what Path of Mettle was going for-- what if it said deal damage to all non-agile creatures instead?
ReplyDeleteThe big question is gonna be knowing when batching should be used. I dont think it could ever be important enough to a set to batch those "agility" keywords, for example. In a way, it creates sort of an invisible subtype, and wyioe that opens up so much, it also is not nothing that both older cards AND newer cards have a facrt about them that isn't printed on the card. I'm also not the biggest fan of historic as an implementation for probably very well known reasons, but I get the surrounding standard environment they built created a problem they needed to solve.
Batching technology makes me hopeful for the ability to refer to 'instants and sorceries' more cleanly. I was thinking about that and came up with the following idea:
ReplyDeleteMineral Mage {3}{R}
Creature - Human Wizard (C)
Trample
Whenever you cast a conjuration spell, put a +1/+1 counter on Material Mage. (Conjurations are instants, sorceries, Illusions, or Elementals.)
2/2
Current Mage {3}{U}{U}
Creature - Human Wizard (U)
Flying
When ~ enters the battlefield, return target conjuration spell from your graveyard to your hand. (Conjurations are instants, sorceries, Illusions, or Elementals.)
2/2
This idea is problematic for a few reasons:
1.) It refers to four types, not three. That's stretching it significantly. Three is easy to group. Four, less so.
2.) It's split between permanent and nonpermanent. That's no bueno. There's a lot of design space shut off as a result.
At the same time, though... it's real flavorful, no? :)
A word that just means "instant and sorceries" would be great. They already use the same subtype list!
DeleteYeah. That's where this idea started from, but I was thinking that just 'instants and sorceries' felt so sparse.
DeleteI've always thought "impermanent" would be a good shorthand for them, but it's also not the most accessible vocabulary. Though, neither is "permanent".
What if it were "Whenever you conjure ..."
DeleteAnd that's help-texted (whenever you cast a sorcery, instant or illusion or elemental creature)
I considered that Larcent, but it narrows our design space even more. I figured designs like Current Mage were worth the extra words.
DeleteI really like this actually. It might be an option to try and do instants and sorceries matter set, though I think it'd need some flavor finagling of course to figure out what kind of world it would be. I would make it only one type, leaning toward Elemental. That way, you can have decks that care about spells and have them have a creature type they can use, since one of the issues of a spells matter set would be needing to get creatures in there. I think the question there would be is this only working with one creature type gonna be enough? We've had some sets built almost entirely around one type, but...
DeleteThat's what I was thinking Enzio. It also felt so unfair to leave Illusions out since they fit the flavor so well.
DeleteTemporary! Spells that aren't permanent are temporary.
DeleteFor some reason 'temporary' feels a little downside-y to me, even though 'impermanent' doesn't. Does that make sense? Iunno if it does. It might be fine and my brain is just being weird.
Delete"Immediate"? It occurs to me that both temporary and immediate are adjectives only, where permanent is a noun as well.
Delete"Counter target transient."
DeleteHmm. Actually, it might be fine, since you only refer to "permanents" as opposed to "permanent spells" or "permanent cards" while they're on the battlefield. We'd say, "counter target immediate spell" or "search for an immediate card."
Immediate feels a little too close to instant for me... this is so tricky. :(
DeleteI completely forgot that I was thinking about a creature-focused batch myself for a G/B playstyle.
ReplyDeleteVermin: Which refers to bats, rats, spiders, and snakes.
I hadn't actually batch keyworded it, but I had brainstormed this card.
Vermin Frenzy 2BG
Sorcery
Distribute four +1/+1 counters among any number of target bats, rats, spiders, and snakes you control. Your creatures with counters also have deathtouch until the end of the turn.
I think there are some memory issues, though. I left out insects and worms and I think some other creature types that people might see as "vermin."
It has to at least include all the types from Swarmyard, right?
DeleteTIL Swarmyard lists Squirrels. Lol.
DeleteBatching seems to help accomplish some of the goals involved with Maro's idea to have Instants just be Flash Sorceries:
ReplyDeleteQuick Retrieval - 1R
Instant
Return target Quick spell from your graveyard to your hand. (Instants and spells with Flash are Quick.) Exile Quick Retrieval.
That's super intuitive. Not sure it comes up enough to justify, unless we make it a theme of a set.
DeleteForaging Tracker {1}{G}
ReplyDeleteCreature - Elf Scout
Whenever you resupply, scry 1. (You resupply when you gain life, put a counter on a permanent you control, or draw a card after your draw step.)
1/3
I was thinking of other thematic batches and this came to mind. I wanted to include something related to land drops or mana (as another important resource in the game after all) but I didn't want it to be a broader landfall.
"Draw a card after your draw step" is confusing to me. Which draw step are you referring to? Would it work better as "draw a card outside your draw step"?
DeleteAlso, it's a bit awkward that you can resupply with -1/-1 counters. Maybe it should only be +1/+1 counters?
I considered 'outside' but 'after' is shorter and felt more like everyday wording. Might be too confusing though, I hadn't realized it could be interpreted that way and now I see how easily it can be mistaken for that.
DeleteI figured it was fine to resupply with -1/-1 counters. We've seen multiple cards care about removing them, thus making them a form of supply. And in this set it'd be paired with +1/+1 so it'd be clearer flavor, much like how historic is paired with truly "old" artifacts in its set.
Alhammarret's Archive suggests "draw a card except the first one you draw in each of your draw steps" and that works better with Howling Mine.
DeleteIs there a way to make that more concise through the infinite power of reminder text? :)
DeleteWhat about "Draw a card except your first draw in your draw step"?
I think the idea of batching actions has some potential, though looking at the reminder text for Resupply worries me. This text is really hard to fit on a common.
DeleteWe honestly don't even need to distinguish between upkeep and draw step for the first card drawn during your turn:
Delete"Draw a card except your first during your turn"
That's so close, but now it sounds like that won't trigger if you draw a card during an opponent's turn.
DeleteDoes "draw a card by a card effect" or something similar work? The intent being to ignore the draw phase draw because it's a game mechanic not a caused by a card or ability.
DeleteSimplest solution is just count all draw.
DeleteI was considering "draw a card from a spell or ability", yeah.
DeleteI wish I could do that too, Jay, but it shuts off so much design space.
I don't know if this has enough design space, but I thought it was an interesting idea.
ReplyDeletePull through the Veil 3BB
Instant (R)
Put all cards you own in Limbo onto the battlefield. (Permanents that were put into a graveyard, exile, or hand this turn are in Limbo.)
*put into a graveyard, exile or hand from the battlefield this turn
Delete"Cards that left the battlefield this turn"?
DeleteWouldn't that wording be problematic with cards like Repel?
DeleteI'm generally quite pessimistic about batching. I think Magic limited has been suffering in recent years from becoming overly cookie cutter/ paint by numbers.
ReplyDeleteBatching encourages even more templated cards/gameplay that will feel the same set after set. What historic designs do you think are the very best? How will you feel about it the third time that same card is done but for a different batch?
My Jury is still out on it. I'm very unimpressed with the mechanical hooks of the set, although I love the flavor and many of the individual cards. I am waiting to see if it plays interestingly and in a new way.
DeleteYeah, there are a lot of neat cards, and obviously kicker will make this a better limited set than most in recent memory. There are many great individual designs at common, and I will steal many of them for my intermediate cube.
DeleteI'm very excited by Sagas generally, although the designs do not have a lot of hits, which worries me that the design space might only be five cards deep.
As far as an interesting unique limited environment, I don't see that coming out of the spoiler. Sometimes the really neat things about a limited format aren't visible at first glance.
If anyone is still on this thread what are peoples thoughts on batches of one?
ReplyDeletePower to the Peasants 1WW
Instant
small creatures you control get +1/+3 until end of turn(small creature are creatures with base power and toughness 1/1)
For me, this works, but only if we use it a lot and there's another related word (like 'large' that is also intuitive).
Delete