Cool Card Design of the Day4/20/2015 - I was messing around with a design that wanted a death trigger a few weeks back but thematically, it didn't want to be just any death trigger. That's how I stumbled upon the phrase "dies in combat" which has a few small mechanical ramifications but does a lot thematically and in communicating to the player how to use the card.
What exactly does "dies in combat" mean?
ReplyDelete-I use Cartel Aristocrat to sacrifice this during the beginning of my attack step?
-I attack with this, then use Cartel Aristocrat to sacrifice it? Any difference before/after blockers?
-It takes nonlethal damage, then the opponent Lightning Bolts it at end of combat?
If it dies while it's attacking or blocking, regardless of how, then it "died in combat." Sacrificing or Lightning Bolt'ing it both work, as long as the creature is still in combat at the time.
DeleteLMK if anyone feels there's a more intuitive interpretation.
Wobbles suggests via twitter: "I would have it be 'dies due to combat damage' not just while attacking or blocking"
DeleteAnd that's not unreasonable.
I suspected that's what you meant, but I don't love that the beginning of the combat step is not "in combat", but would be "during combat" on another card.
DeleteI don't love Wobbles' suggestion either because I think there's going to be a lot of confusion with the Lightning Bolt case - If your 4/4 blocks my 1/5 and I Lightning Bolt it before damage, I would intuit that it "dies due to combat damage". But I don't think it still "dies due to combat damage" when I Lightning Bolt it at the beginning of the endstep.
I suspect that "dies in combat" hasn't seen print yet because it's very wonky to make everything play intuitively.
I don't think "dies due to combat damage" makes sense.
DeleteI like the idea, but I don't think Magic gets to be this lax with templating. There was a discussion on tumblr just last week about how the rules can't accomodate something as easy as "when ~ wins a fight" which is, I think, far more transparent than this.
Also, and this is maybe here nor there, a 2 mana 2/2 is basically never dying other than in combat.
DeleteMy initial assumption was that it only triggers if it dies from combat damage as well, but I don't think that works, since damage doesn't kill creatures, SBA's do. How about "When ~ dies, if it was dealt combat damage this turn, draw a card"? It's not exactly the same, but I'm not sure there's a closer wording that works within the rules.
DeleteCathedral Membrane exists. Do the gatherer rulings on that card clarify any of the confusion around Honorable Death?
Delete"Dies during combat" isn't a problem at all. It is rather far from capturing the idea of dying in combat, however.
DeleteIf I ever read "dies in combat" in a game that has a "combat phase" that starts and ends with a "beginning of combat step" and "end of combat step", I would assume it meant "dies during combat".
DeleteI think Reach of Shadows-ing a creature during the combat step that is neither attacking nor blocking should not count as "in combat" but I am also advocating not letting "in combat" appear on a card.
Delete"dies while attacking or blocking" may more accurately capture my vision of Jay's vision.
DeleteTo clarify: "Dies during combat" would mean the same thing it does on Cathedral Citadel. That's just the way timing is written in Magic.
DeleteOn dies due to combat damage:
I think this would work, too. To clarify, it would just mean that if last damage the creature received before it died was combat damage, the ability would trigger. The situation that R Stech brings up is a perfect example. Bolt it before damage is dealt, it triggers. FInish it off with a bolt? Doesn't trigger. No sweat.
"Dies in combat" I think is a fine alternative phrasing of "dies during combat". The problem with that is that fighting isn't combat damage. How many newer players would say "The card says they fight! Surely that means it dies during combat?"
Delete"Dies due to combat damage" I suspect is rather more problematic. The game state doesn't track "what caused" something to die - that's not a concept that even makes sense. Wobbles's proposal of "the last damage the creature received before it died was combat damage" still leaves open that it could have been hit with Scar, Bane of the Living, and About Face before finally its toughness drops below its marked damage. I assume you'd also want to prevent against the creature receiving combat damage but then getting hit by Doom Blade, Ashling the Extinguisher, or perhaps Unsummon while Horobi, Death's Wail is on the table? You end up wanting to make the Comp Rules say "the last thing that happened to the creature", but even that doesn't help if the opponent casts a second main phase Curse of Death's Hold or bounces your Veteran Armorer...
No, I think "dies due to combat damage" is definitely unfeasible. "Dies during combat" has precedent in Cathedral Membrane (and is a great phrase that should get used more). "Dies in combat" is probably a viable alternative, though "during" may be that fraction clearer and so worth sticking to.
I was proposing "dies in combat" as a more thematic phrase than "dies during combat." If your creature is sitting combat out (for whatever reason), dying at that time shouldn't mean anything. "Dies while attacking or blocking" appears to be the Magic-ese needed to unambiguously describe. It's not quite as poetic, but it's still pretty short.
DeleteCan we add "or fighting?" Does that work? That doesn't read nearly as well, but it is more intuitive.
"or fighting" makes sense, but isn't going to do what you want, because it'll be vanishingly rare for a creature die actually during the duration of a fight. Most creatures will die just after fighting, the next time SBAs occur. Even infect/wither won't change that; about the only card you'd affect would be Dralnu, Lich Lord.
DeleteI... think you'd be able to say something "dies just after a fight", where "just after" is a proposed new rules term meaning "during rounds of state-based actions after X, before anyone gains priority". That'd risk including cases where it's your Veteran Armorer that got in the fight, though.
It is an interesting part of the fabric of each game what notions are easy to express in that game and what notions are hard. This leads to a lot of what gives each game its character.
DeleteVery true. If Magic were being redesigned from the ground up, I think it'd definitely be worth trying to make the keyword action "fight" count as combat and respect keywords like first strike and even trample. But with fight having been added 20+ years after the game has been going, that's a bit of a lost cause at the moment.
DeleteIndeed.
DeleteAt least we've got fight at all.
Yeah, I would like to see the game designed that way.
DeleteFor this card, I love the idea of "dies in combat" but agree with the problems. Would "when this is dealt combat damage" do? 95% of the time that's the same as "dies due to combat damage" but is unambiguous. You could say "if this dies and was dealt combat damage this turn" but that's clunkier.
Or even "when this is dealt damage by a creature", including fight at the expense of also including pingers?
OTOH, maybe "is dealt combat or fight damage" would work? That rules out similar abilities that don't use the keyword, but magic does that often.
"When ~ dies to lethal damage dealt by creatures"
Delete"When a creature deal lethal damage to ~."
DeleteThe phrase "lethal damage" occurs on a single card from Visions. That isn't a bright start!
DeleteI considered variants on "lethal damage". I would like something like that to work! But it seems like magic has cards that try to say "when this is killed by something" but don't find a wording that works.
DeleteWhat happens if it's dealt damage by another source first, and then by a creature? What happens if it's dealt some damage by a noncreature and some damage by a creature in the same effect?
Deathtouch's reminder text is (Any amount of damage this deals to a creature is enough to destroy it.)
Delete"Whenever a creature deals enough damage to destroy ~."
Yes, I was comparing to deathtouch too, but note that that wording means, if it's blocked by two 1/1s you don't get a card, and if it's indestructible, you do even though it doesn't die...
DeleteI think "dies after being dealt damage by a creature this turn" is probably the closest we're going to get, though I'd like to hear alternatives!
If two 1/1s block and kill a 2/2, [at least] one of them dealt enough damage to destroy it. We can clarify though:
Delete"Whenever one or more creatures deal enough damage to destroy ~."
Ah, ok, I sort of see what you mean. But "at least one of them dealt enough damage to destroy it" sounds like it's referring to the _last_ damage dealt, which I think doesn't work in magic if the damage isn't dealt one source at a time (eg. if the damage is dealt by creatures and non-creatures simultaneously by one effect).
DeleteIt sounds like the choices, however you phrase them, are:
* if this dies/is dealt lethal damage, and at least some of it comes from creatures
* if enough damage is dealt to this solely from creatures it would be lethal even without any other damage
Those are at least unambiguous. But I'm not sure we have a phrase which unambiguously means either yet?
This could be templated as "When ~ dies, if it's a combat phase, draw a card" though I think "dies in combat" is eminently understandable wording.
ReplyDeleteThe ability word is flavorful but doesn't make sense on an animal.
Definitely makes sense on a proud warrior or noble knight. I tried it on a beast since it hits one of green's fundamental philosophies dead-on, though the art and name really didn't support that flavor.
DeleteNot sure how the idea of honorable death fits green philosophically. White is the color where ideals are more important than individuals, and where dying for the greater good is lauded (or even encouraged.) Green sees life as important for its own sake and is the color that most despises death (though it recognizes that the predator/prey relationship exists in nature, it sees this as more of a survival necessity than something that needs to be celebrated.)
DeleteI certainly think Green is the second most death focused color after Black, which is why it is intimately interested in the graveyard (perhaps more so than Black).
DeleteGreen's caring about the graveyard is due to the fact that green is the color that cares most about tradition and learning from those who came before. Green honors the past; it doesn't honor death. (Though Golgari certainly does.)
Delete(Though I don't think the Golgari would really distinguish between an honorable death or not - the Golgari see death as a rite of passage everyone has to undertake.)
Delete"Dies in combat" isn't about the graveyard, it's about fighting. Being a predator, or the prey, as is the way of things.
DeleteRight, but that's not honor, that's about nature. Honor is an ideal. To green, the world is how it is. The lion kills the antelope, the hunter kills the lion, the lhurgoyf kills the hunter: there's no honor, there's just survival.
DeleteMaybe it's easier to look at honor in Green by looking at "dishonorable" combat. Things like being backstabbled, using fire/lightning, a sniper shot, For green, unless your battling with your raw strength, Lion kills antelope, fine. Hunter with a gun kills a lion? that's pretty black.
DeleteTo green, the hunter's intelligence is just her natural advantage. Humans are creatures, and the hunter is just using her brain, which is her natural advantage over the lion. Of course she couldn't be expected to fight it with her bare hands; that's not her advantage.
DeleteWhat green can't abide is killing for reasons other than survival. Two humans are at similar spots on the food chain; if they can't put aside their differences, they're going to wind up as lhurgoyf food.
So you don't disagree that this mechanic fits green, only that the name shouldn't be Honorable Death?
DeleteYes. In fact, I think green cares more about death by creature damage than death in combat (because of fight.)
DeleteI feel like one of the biggest impacts these abilities would have on a set (if this is a mechanic/theme, rather than just a new evergreen way of doing some triggers in green) is on white removal, of the Sandblast/Divine Verdict variety. You could actually even maybe print removal with less of a downside on-the-card-itself, if, for instance, almost all the White removal triggers these abilities, where its Black counterparts don't have to.
ReplyDeleteI really think that any variant of this ability that doesn't close the "killed by spells" loophole is just terrible. Dies in Combat should mean that it ran into another creature and died fighting.
DeleteI've used this mechanic before and I love it - I think it adds some interesting considerations to the gameplay, as players are incentivized to be more risky with their "Honorable Death" creatures.
ReplyDeleteRuleswise, I think that's not difficult to translate. It seems to me like it clearly translates to "is destroyed by combat damage during the combat damage step (i.e. during the application of rule 510.2)". In practice, it's a little wobbly as everyone has pointed out.
ReplyDelete